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Author Topic: Sletch pontificates on gun combat in SC3  (Read 10175 times)
Crafty_Pat
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« Reply #210 on: July 07, 2012, 08:31:59 PM »

MilitiaJim: I realise there are probably important IRL considerations for rimmed/rimless ammo, but for me (and I'm much more of a gun bunny than most of my roleplaying friends) that's just way to finickity for me and falls mainly in the "who cares/too much detail!" that 2nd edition fell into (sorry Pat  Embarrassed )

No no dude, I'm the first person in that complaint line. Spycraft 2.0's weapons got way out of control. It's one of the reasons we're being so very careful with them (and all gear, really) this time around.
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« Reply #211 on: July 07, 2012, 08:49:00 PM »

Nice work everyone! As always I cannot guarantee that we'll wind up gong this way, but having the examples improves an already compelling argument.

Just to be sure I have the concept right, you're suggesting this + pre-built weapons lists using the same system? Just trying to figure out where "Glock 17" falls in all this, for example.
Yeah pretty much - I'd have tables as in my sheet, but then also some pre-built guns like:

Glock 17: 9mm, Pistol, Dependable, Rugged (and cost)
Glock 20: 9mm, Pistol, Auto, Drum Mag (<--- not a drum mag, maybe "Extended Mag" would be a better name)
AR-15: 5.56mm, Rifle, Auto, 3 Round Burst

Summat like that Smiley
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Mister Andersen
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« Reply #212 on: July 07, 2012, 09:38:37 PM »

Reduced/Increased capacity (X) would be a weapon stat-line mod (as in changing the fundamental physical structure of the weapon itself), handling things like civillian nerfing of rifle magaziness to only 10 rounds and double stacked mags that let you get 13+ rounds into a .45 handgun / 15+ rounds into a wonder nine. Based on the assumption that weapon+ammo types will give you a default capacity.

Extended mag, drum and C-mag would be after-market gear items
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« Reply #213 on: July 07, 2012, 09:47:39 PM »

Nice work everyone! As always I cannot guarantee that we'll wind up gong this way, but having the examples improves an already compelling argument.

Just to be sure I have the concept right, you're suggesting this + pre-built weapons lists using the same system? Just trying to figure out where "Glock 17" falls in all this, for example.

Sidebar / end of chapter section that has examples - think the end of the Magic Items chapter in FC.

So in this case you'd have:

Glock 17
Weapon: 9mm Pistol (1GP)
Modifications: Extended Magazines (+50%).
Cost: 2 Gear Points.

FN SCAR-H
Weapon: 7.62mm Nato Assault Rifle (2GP)
Modifications: Ruggedisation (+100%), Improved Dependability (+100%), Verticle Foregrip (+25%)
Cost: 7 Gear Points.

Note: Extended magazines refers the the weapon being able to take a double stack mag - having thicker magwells, grips and so on.  Not just having a larger mag - that would be a seperate piece of gear.  This would be in the description.  I've also considered that modifications should have a straight gear price, instead of a percentage, for ease of application.  I do like that it costs more to make a vastly expensive item dependable then it does a cheap handgun though, so I went with my personal preference here.

For what it's also worth I'm going to be playtesting this system somewhat soon - I'm running a WW2 Fantasy Craft game, so firearms will be more front and center then they are in classic FC.  So should  be able to give some decent feedback (especially since there will be some newer players, who aren't gunbunnies).
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« Reply #214 on: July 08, 2012, 12:58:17 AM »

Mr A: I kind of half agree/half disagree with you there. Yeah, having a big clip is a function of the clip, not of the gun. On the other hand, do you often buy/requisition/acquire a gun seperate from it's magazines?

Is it worth buying a gun,  then also buying the magazine, or would it be better to buy the whole shebang as one pick/purchase/acqusition?

How much interest is there typically in buying a 9mm handgun, then buying an 11-round mag, a 30-round, and a (probably hypothetical) 50-round drum?

Personally I'd rather buy a 9mm pistol with 11 rounds mags (as one item) and just leave it at that.

That's a pretty far cry from realistic, I know, but I think that brings it back into "espionage game" and not "ruthlessly accurate military simulation game", IMO
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« Reply #215 on: July 08, 2012, 01:52:00 AM »

Nice work everyone! As always I cannot guarantee that we'll wind up gong this way, but having the examples improves an already compelling argument.

Just to be sure I have the concept right, you're suggesting this + pre-built weapons lists using the same system? Just trying to figure out where "Glock 17" falls in all this, for example.
Yes, I think that would be best.  If I got to decide, I would have a sidebar for it somewhere in the guns part of the gear chapter that lists the 20 or so most recognizable guns (M16, AK, MP5, Glock XX, Beretta M9, M4, G36, Desert Eagle, some others maybe, whatever there's space for), and then have a 1 or 2 page list of recommended configs for a whole bunch of guns as a downloadable thing.

The main difference I see is that while I would determine the recoil based on the ammunition like he is, I would also have the gun modify that, with bigger heavier guns being less effected by recoil.

Actually, once I get to rifle cartridges (that can go into multiple weapon types) I'm going to have modifiers for various weapons in basically the way you mention.  I just did shotguns first because they're pretty damn simple.  Good stuff, too, btw.  One question: By easy / hard / very hard did you have a mechanic in mind?  Or just giving a relative comparison?
I just mean it for comparison, not that easy/hard/etc should have mechanical meaning.

@everyone: Having seen it this way now, I think including a carbine entry in the guns chart is a better option than a carbine modification to other guns.  Updated to demonstrate the point.  I think most of the reason for wanting a carbine mod rather than carbines in the list was to save space and improve clarity and consistency, but under this method, neither of those is a concern anymore.  Thus, I think it becomes simpler in play to have a carbine gun isntead, because it becomes one less modification to make.

Note: I don't think I mentioned this previously: the conceal modifier for the guns in intended to apply to hiding the gun on your person, and for the bullets to remain hidden after firing.  That may be more trouble than it's worth, but since I was getting to suggest a chart, it's something I wouldn't mind having.
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« Reply #216 on: July 08, 2012, 02:09:51 AM »

Sidebar / end of chapter section that has examples - think the end of the Magic Items chapter in FC.

I can guarantee that order wouldn't work. Whatever we do, actual end user guns for the folks who don't want to play with more than the lightest possible mods need to be front, center, and most likely the most prominent thing in the section. It's just the nature of the beast.

Any version of what you're describing here - if we were to do it - would necessarily have to be a) optional, and b) after everything that isn't. Also couldn't be a sidebar, for the very same reasons.

Quote
For what it's also worth I'm going to be playtesting this system somewhat soon - I'm running a WW2 Fantasy Craft game, so firearms will be more front and center then they are in classic FC.  So should  be able to give some decent feedback (especially since there will be some newer players, who aren't gunbunnies).

Awesome. Let us know how that turns out.
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« Reply #217 on: July 08, 2012, 03:16:39 AM »

I can guarantee that order wouldn't work. Whatever we do, actual end user guns for the folks who don't want to play with more than the lightest possible mods need to be front, center, and most likely the most prominent thing in the section. It's just the nature of the beast.

Any version of what you're describing here - if we were to do it - would necessarily have to be a) optional, and b) after everything that isn't. Also couldn't be a sidebar, for the very same reasons.

Ok, with that in mind, how's this for an idea?  The charts we're seeing here are all pretty small.  Part of that is of course because they are just samples to demonstrate what we're talking about, but I think it's also because they'd just work out to be small.  Possibly small enough to all fit on one page (or at least handguns, rifles, and shotguns).  So, you could have a 1 page chart of pre-made named guns (that conform to this method) on one page.  And on the facing page, you have the Build-your-own-gun chart(s).  So everyone who doesn't care or is in a hurry can just pick the M16 or AK-47 or Walther PPK off the pre-made chart.  And everyone else can build up SOPMODs to their heart's content.  Not unlike choosing an NPC from the Rogues gallery vs building one from scratch.
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« Reply #218 on: July 08, 2012, 04:15:53 AM »

If those charts can fit on one page, I think that's a fantastic idea Smiley

My 2c, of course
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« Reply #219 on: July 08, 2012, 06:39:15 AM »

Hm. Possible. Maybe. Maaaybe.

Will consider. Please continue. Smiley
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« Reply #220 on: July 08, 2012, 06:51:12 AM »

Depending on number of options and page count restrictions - and your willingness to reprint the same rule on different pages, which normally is something I'd recommend against - you could have one page of Pistol Rules (Ammo, Frame, Mods), one page of Rifle rules (ditto), one page of Shotgun (ditto), one page of MG (ditto) and one page of Other (Mortars, Tank Guns, Rockets, and so on - stuff that wouldn't show up in an espionage game that often), then one page with pre-built weapons - your M1911's, Berettas, AR-15, Uzi, MP-5 etc etc.

The reason of course that would lead to redundancy is there are some mods (e.g. Dependable) which would be pretty much universal and some (e.g. Sawn-off) which would only apply to one category.

Also, that's a really long sentence for which I apologise Wink
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Crafty_Pat
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« Reply #221 on: July 08, 2012, 06:55:34 AM »

...stuff that wouldn't show up in an espionage game that often...

At least as far as this goes, allow me to reiterate what we've said previously, as it will probably provide some illumination about the process.

The Spycraft Third core book will only include espionage-related gear and weapons (though some fringe items will appear for variety and verisimilitude). Same with 10kB - that core book will only include street-related gear and weapons (with some fringe stuff).

Everything from both core books and a whole lot more will appear in the dedicated Gear & Gadgets book, which can and will be a lot more exhaustive.

That doesn't directly impact the current train of thought, but it's important to note regardless.
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Patrick Kapera
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« Reply #222 on: July 08, 2012, 07:02:39 AM »

Mr A: I kind of half agree/half disagree with you there. Yeah, having a big clip is a function of the clip, not of the gun. On the other hand, do you often buy/requisition/acquire a gun seperate from it's magazines?

Is it worth buying a gun,  then also buying the magazine, or would it be better to buy the whole shebang as one pick/purchase/acqusition?

It's important that the distinction is there I think if you're building an adaptive system that can deal with agency and non-agency weapon supply, because there will absolutely be games where characters -- either through being burned or captured or mission parameters or what have you -- are forced to turn to sub-optimal supply channels, or will be facing against such under equiped individuals.

Quote
How much interest is there typically in buying a 9mm handgun, then buying an 11-round mag, a 30-round, and a (probably hypothetical) 50-round drum?

Personally I'd rather buy a 9mm pistol with 11 rounds mags (as one item) and just leave it at that.

That's a pretty far cry from realistic, I know, but I think that brings it back into "espionage game" and not "ruthlessly accurate military simulation game", IMO

It's about a system that can satisfy the gun bunnies without swamping those who seek less simulationist outcomes.

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« Reply #223 on: July 08, 2012, 09:23:38 AM »

Very quick and very dirty, something like this:

Click ME!

The other thing that's completely missing from that list is how much these things "cost", mostly because I have no clue Wink I'm not ashamed to say I don't understand the "3D" "15W" notation that tfwfh uses in his chart Smiley
This is a lot better than what I had kludged up so far.

The 'D' in '3D' is for drum, if I recall correctly.
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« Reply #224 on: July 08, 2012, 11:39:38 AM »

Oh, I had completely missed that comment earlier.  That's complexity, it's for crafting, same as Fantasy Craft.  D is for Day, W is Week, M is Month.
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