Back to Crafty Games Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?
October 01, 2014, 07:24:40 AM
Home Help Search Login Register
News: Welcome to the Crafty Games Forums!

Note to New Members: To combat spam, we have instituted new rules: you must post 5 replies to existing threads before you can create new threads.

+  Crafty Games Forum
|-+  Products
| |-+  Fantasy Craft
| | |-+  Converted Spells
« previous next »
Pages: 1 [2] 3 Go Down Print
Author Topic: Converted Spells  (Read 1970 times)
LordKruelos
Handler
*****
Posts: 998



View Profile
« Reply #15 on: March 23, 2012, 07:32:12 PM »

Living Gauge
<snip>
Arguably the most powerful 0-level spell in the game.

What makes it so powerful? What would you suggest?

Mind if I think out-loud a bit?
My initial reactions were 1) No way would I ever NOT take that spell as a 0-level spell and 2) The Druid priest or Ranger-type character just lost a central piece of his shtick to a 0-level spell.

So, looking at it closer, I guess I'd start by looking for comparable exemplars -- divination / location / weather spells, and see how it stacks up.

Living Gauge
Level : 0 Weather
Casting Time 1 Minute
Distance: Personal
Duration: Concentration
Effect: Caster can ascertain information from the surrounding atmosphere. You learn the basic weather information in the area [What counts as "Basic Weather Information?" Needs to be Defined. Range needs to be defined] you are in for the next 24 hours.

Quote
ORIENT SELF
Level: 0 Divination
Casting Time: 1 half action
Distance: Personal
Duration: Instant
Effect: You sense the direction of north from your current
position and gain a +1 magic bonus with Knowledge checks
made to navigate from your current location.

CONTROL WEATHER I
Level: 1 Weather (Air)
Casting Time: 1 full action
Distance: Personal
Area: 200 ft. per Casting Level sphere
Duration: 24 hours
Effect: One cold/heat wave, dust/fog/rain/snow, or wind
effect with an action die cost of 1 occurs in the Area (see page
369). If desired, you may create an “eye” of calm weather up to
80 ft. in diameter around you. The effect builds over 1d6 minutes
after casting. Your choice may change with a full action, the new
effect building over the next 1d6 minutes.

Compared to Orient Self, it gives a ton more information for a longer time frame. Perhaps if the effect was more limited, in line with of the 0-level Detect spells or Orient Self.


Effect: You sense the current basic weather information (Content and Range to be defined) (Temperature, Humidity, Wind Speed and Direction?) for your immediate vicinity and gain +1 magic bonus with Knowledge and Survival checks made to predict the weather.
Logged
Medwyn
Operative
****
Posts: 293




View Profile
« Reply #16 on: March 23, 2012, 08:40:01 PM »

Mind if I think out-loud a bit?
My initial reactions were 1) No way would I ever NOT take that spell as a 0-level spell and 2) The Druid priest or Ranger-type character just lost a central piece of his shtick to a 0-level spell.

So, looking at it closer, I guess I'd start by looking for comparable exemplars -- divination / location / weather spells, and see how it stacks up.

Effect: You sense the current basic weather information (Content and Range to be defined) (Temperature, Humidity, Wind Speed and Direction?) for your immediate vicinity and gain +1 magic bonus with Knowledge and Survival checks made to predict the weather.

I'm very glad for the feedback Smiley

And honestly I never really thought of it as that bad/powerful. Then again Rolemaster spells are hideously out of balance.

How does this rewrite stack up?

Living Gauge
Level : 0 Weather
Casting Time 1 Minute
Distance: Personal
Area: 200 ft. per Casting Level sphere
Duration: Instant
You can sense information from the surrounding area including: temperature, humidity, wind speed and direction. Further you gain +1 magic bonus with Knowledge and Survival checks made to predict the weather.
Logged
Oniya
Recruit
*
Posts: 10


View Profile
« Reply #17 on: March 26, 2012, 10:35:25 AM »


Stabilize
Level : 0 Healing
Casting Time 1 Half Action
Distance: Touch
Duration instantaneous
Effect: One character that is dying automatically stabilises. If the character later takes damage, it continues dying normally.


Isn't this spell just Touch of Light? Stabilize is what Touch of Light is meant to do, except it doesn't restore 1 point of health. Since a character stabilizes when they gain at least 1 point of health, then Touch of Light covers that. Admittedly, your Stabilize spell avoids the problem with Touch of Light that people can use it to restore everyone's vitality to full during even a short period of downtime.

Anyway, just seems like FC already has the spell.
Logged
Krensky
Control
******
Posts: 7031


WWTWD?


View Profile
« Reply #18 on: March 26, 2012, 12:13:27 PM »

Isn't this spell just Touch of Light? Stabilize is what Touch of Light is meant to do, except it doesn't restore 1 point of health. Since a character stabilizes when they gain at least 1 point of health, then Touch of Light covers that. Admittedly, your Stabilize spell avoids the problem with Touch of Light that people can use it to restore everyone's vitality to full during even a short period of downtime.

Anyway, just seems like FC already has the spell.

This isn't D&D.

A special NPC stabilizes when someone makes a Medicine/Stabilize check on them or they're healed back to 0 or better Wounds. Touch of Light only heals vitality. so it will never stabilize someone.

Touch of Light restoring everyone's Vitality is a feature, not a problem. Remember, they need a +12 to do it without failure or risk of critical failure, so earliest is like 3rd or 4th level with a good Int and Casting Basics. The PCs being at full Vitality for every fight doesn't break or even significantly change how the game plays.

Now, I would argue that the Stabilize spell should be a full action. It's an easier DC then Medicine/Stabilize, but it's also not potentially restoring Wounds or waking the subject up like that skill action. It does avoid the cross-species medicine penalty, but that's probably ok. It also doesn't run the risk of killing the subject either.
« Last Edit: March 26, 2012, 12:18:01 PM by Krensky » Logged

We can lick gravity, but sometimes the paperwork is overwhelming. - Werner von Braun
Right now you have no idea how lucky you are that I am not a sociopath. - A sign seen above my desk.
There's no upside in screwing with things you can't explain. - Captain Roy Montgomery
Oniya
Recruit
*
Posts: 10


View Profile
« Reply #19 on: March 26, 2012, 01:10:03 PM »

Isn't this spell just Touch of Light? Stabilize is what Touch of Light is meant to do, except it doesn't restore 1 point of health. Since a character stabilizes when they gain at least 1 point of health, then Touch of Light covers that. Admittedly, your Stabilize spell avoids the problem with Touch of Light that people can use it to restore everyone's vitality to full during even a short period of downtime.

Anyway, just seems like FC already has the spell.

This isn't D&D.

A special NPC stabilizes when someone makes a Medicine/Stabilize check on them or they're healed back to 0 or better Wounds. Touch of Light only heals vitality. so it will never stabilize someone.

Touch of Light restoring everyone's Vitality is a feature, not a problem. Remember, they need a +12 to do it without failure or risk of critical failure, so earliest is like 3rd or 4th level with a good Int and Casting Basics. The PCs being at full Vitality for every fight doesn't break or even significantly change how the game plays.

Now, I would argue that the Stabilize spell should be a full action. It's an easier DC then Medicine/Stabilize, but it's also not potentially restoring Wounds or waking the subject up like that skill action. It does avoid the cross-species medicine penalty, but that's probably ok. It also doesn't run the risk of killing the subject either.

Oh right, forgot about that aspect of Touch of Light and when specials stabilize due to health regen.
Logged
Medwyn
Operative
****
Posts: 293




View Profile
« Reply #20 on: March 26, 2012, 08:20:30 PM »

All good points and I'm glad to see my wording had the intended effect.

Change as suggested.

Stabilize
Level : 0 Healing
Casting Time: 1 Full Action
Distance: Touch
Duration instantaneous
Effect: One character that is dying automatically stabilizes. If the character later takes damage, it continues dying normally.

Logged
Medwyn
Operative
****
Posts: 293




View Profile
« Reply #21 on: June 06, 2012, 04:41:49 PM »

One of my players has decided to play a Prophet and after taking a best guess at the class abilities etc he needs some Foresight spells.

So here are a couple of my first draft ideas heavily borrowed from ICE.


Intuition I
Level : 1 Foresight
Casting Time 1 Full Action
Distance: Close
Duration: 1 Round
Effect: Caster designates one action to partake in the following Initiative Count. The combat round is played out as normal. At the start of the next  Initiative Count after the designated action the caster may choose to either keep the round played or choose a different action and have a new round played out instead.

Battle Sense
Level : 0 Foresight
Casting Time 1 Half Action
Distance: Close
Duration: 1 Round
Area: 1 Target
Effect: You can predict information from a single character area to guess at their next intended action. You may predict the action of single character’s actions in the next Initiative count with a successful Knowledge Check (DC 15). This is limited to the the action, so you will know that she will use a melee attack, or cast a spell but will not know who the intended target is or which spell is cast.
Logged
tfwfh
Operative
****
Posts: 443



View Profile
« Reply #22 on: June 06, 2012, 06:18:00 PM »

Ok, well.  My first reaction is that those spells are just completely unworkable.  Combat tends to be slow enough without having to record every action and result so that you can hit ctl+z on the round.  And Battle Sense basically amounts to requiring the GM to choose now, during the player's turn, what action their NPC will take when their turn comes up.  That is not ok for reasons that should be obvious.

And even if those things weren't unacceptable problems, level 1 and 0 for these spells is just comically low.  To my mind, Intuition is more powerful than Time Stop so I can't even imagine what an appropriate level for it would be, and Battle Sense is substantially better than Command I, which is the most similar spell effect I can think of, so it should be at least level 3, and maybe 4.

Here's what I would suggest instead:

Intuition I
Level: 2 Foresight
Casting Time: 1 Half Action
Distance: Personal
Duration: 1 Round
Effect: After you have completed a single action during the spell's duration, you may decide to change your mind and perform a different action instead.  All the effects of that action are undone (such as damaging an enemy, or triggering a trap) and you may take a different action, with the knowledge of what would otherwise have happened.

This way, only the player who cast the spell needs to track their actions, and the amount of time spent doing things that never happened is kept to a minimum.  Higher level progressions could function for longer duration or affect more targets, but the single action redo limit should always be present.
Logged

Who's the more foolish, the fool or tfwfh?
Medwyn
Operative
****
Posts: 293




View Profile
« Reply #23 on: June 06, 2012, 06:36:19 PM »

Ok, well.  My first reaction is that those spells are just completely unworkable.  Combat tends to be slow enough without having to record every action and result so that you can hit ctl+z on the round.  And Battle Sense basically amounts to requiring the GM to choose now, during the player's turn, what action their NPC will take when their turn comes up.  That is not ok for reasons that should be obvious.

Maybe I am missing something but for what obvious reason is it not okay?

Quote
And even if those things weren't unacceptable problems, level 1 and 0 for these spells is just comically low.  To my mind, Intuition is more powerful than Time Stop so I can't even imagine what an appropriate level for it would be, and Battle Sense is substantially better than Command I, which is the most similar spell effect I can think of, so it should be at least level 3, and maybe 4.

Battle Sense as I intended allows you to guess/predict the most likely course of action that single NPC's action might be. There is no requirement that the NPC is going to do that said action as the player may do something that stops or changes the planned action.

Quote
Here's what I would suggest instead:

Intuition I
Level: 2 Foresight
Casting Time: 1 Half Action
Distance: Personal
Duration: 1 Round
Effect: After you have completed a single action during the spell's duration, you may decide to change your mind and perform a different action instead.  All the effects of that action are undone (such as damaging an enemy, or triggering a trap) and you may take a different action, with the knowledge of what would otherwise have happened.

This way, only the player who cast the spell needs to track their actions, and the amount of time spent doing things that never happened is kept to a minimum.  Higher level progressions could function for longer duration or affect more targets, but the single action redo limit should always be present.

That definitely cuts down on the paperwork, and still captures the flavour.
I always seems to have difficulty with spell levels. I guess my players are not as rules lawyery or power gaming as much as others.
So I cast the Intuition spell as a half action and then whatever I do with my other half action if I don't like the outcome I can change to do something else?
Logged
tfwfh
Operative
****
Posts: 443



View Profile
« Reply #24 on: June 06, 2012, 10:48:35 PM »

It's not ok because the result is almost that the players can dictate the actions of enemy NPCs.  The situation I imagine is this:
Player: I cast Battle Sense on the Giant Monster, what will it do next turn?
GM: The Giant Monster will use it's flurry attack to kill everyone.
Player: Alright, guys, everyone step back.
GM: >:| The Giant Monster flurries, and doesn't hit anything, because it's been predetermined that he will flurry.

If the GM can change his mind after telling the player the result from Battle Sense, then what was the point of Battle Sense?  And if he can't, then that ties his hands to an unacceptable degree.

For Intuition, yes, mostly.  I think initiative works this way, but I could be misapplying DnD rules.  Anyway, the idea is that if the 1 round duration starts in the middle of your current action, then it will end in the middle of your next action.  So if you case Intuition with your first half action, then you can use it on your second half action this round, or your first half action next round.
Logged

Who's the more foolish, the fool or tfwfh?
Medwyn
Operative
****
Posts: 293




View Profile
« Reply #25 on: June 06, 2012, 11:13:34 PM »

It's not ok because the result is almost that the players can dictate the actions of enemy NPCs.  The situation I imagine is this:
Player: I cast Battle Sense on the Giant Monster, what will it do next turn?
GM: The Giant Monster will use it's flurry attack to kill everyone.
Player: Alright, guys, everyone step back.
GM: >:| The Giant Monster flurries, and doesn't hit anything, because it's been predetermined that he will flurry.

If the GM can change his mind after telling the player the result from Battle Sense, then what was the point of Battle Sense?  And if he can't, then that ties his hands to an unacceptable degree.

But I want that. I want my players to react to an action that is coming up.
I may not of told my players that Giant Monster was going to Flurry, I would have said melee attack.
When it comes to doing an action if that action can not be fulfilled and the NPC is smart enough to know this , then the NPCs' action could change. I am using the theory that even knowing about the future is enough to change the future.

Maybe if the spell stated the action it can foresee in general terms like limited to melee attack, ranged attack, unarmed attack, cast a spell, movement action or initiative action
I do see that the level of the spell is too low and needs to be addressed.
How does this look?

Battle Sense
Level : 1 Foresight
Casting Time 1 Half Action
Distance: Close
Duration: 1 Round
Area: 1 Target
Effect: You can predict information from a single character area to guess at their next intended action. You may predict the action of single character’s action in the next Initiative count with a successful Knowledge Check (DC 15). This is limited to the the action, so you will know that she will use a melee attack, ranged attack, unarmed attack, cast a spell, movement action or initiative action but will not know who the intended target is or which spell is cast.
 
Quote
For Intuition, yes, mostly.  I think initiative works this way, but I could be misapplying DnD rules.  Anyway, the idea is that if the 1 round duration starts in the middle of your current action, then it will end in the middle of your next action.  So if you case Intuition with your first half action, then you can use it on your second half action this round, or your first half action next round.
Good. I'd run it that way to at my table Smiley
Logged
Sletchman
Control
******
Posts: 4108


Gentleman Scholar.


View Profile WWW
« Reply #26 on: June 06, 2012, 11:57:35 PM »

The problem, as I see it, is that things change.  Example:

PC1:  I cast Battle Sense on the chief.  *Rolls*  Passed the knowledge check.
DM: The enemy chief is going to attack PC3 using melee after PC2's turn.
PC2:  *Shank* *Feint* *Shank* *Throw Knife* *Throw Knife*  Woot - 4 enemies down in one turn, a new record!
DM:  The chief charges and attacks PC2.
PC1:  What? You said he'd attack PC3.
DM:  Yeah, but he's reacting to sir shivs-a-lot going postal on his men 20 feet away, he wouldn't ignore that.
PC1:  So what's the point of using the spell if it doesn't work?

etc...  (In an alternate reality the chief was shanked once and decided to flee rather then be knifed to death.)

My $0.05:

Battle Sense
Level : 1 Foresight
Casting Time: 1 Half Action
Distance: Close
Duration: Instantaneous
Area: 1 Target
Effect: You can predict how the battle will unfold.  Make a Sense Motive check (DC equal to the targets Attack Bonus).  If successful the GM must give you a hint about how the target likes to fight (for example: flurry attacks, using charging and mobility, or using long range multishots).  A character may only be targetted with this spell once per adventure.


tfwfh's Intuition looks ok, a little butch (IMO) but it shouldn't present problems.
Logged
tfwfh
Operative
****
Posts: 443



View Profile
« Reply #27 on: June 07, 2012, 02:13:49 AM »

It could certainly be a level higher.
Logged

Who's the more foolish, the fool or tfwfh?
Krensky
Control
******
Posts: 7031


WWTWD?


View Profile
« Reply #28 on: June 07, 2012, 08:22:32 AM »

Make Intuition apply to the caster's next action, it solves all sorts of wonkiness about duration.
Logged

We can lick gravity, but sometimes the paperwork is overwhelming. - Werner von Braun
Right now you have no idea how lucky you are that I am not a sociopath. - A sign seen above my desk.
There's no upside in screwing with things you can't explain. - Captain Roy Montgomery
tfwfh
Operative
****
Posts: 443



View Profile
« Reply #29 on: June 07, 2012, 05:09:24 PM »

But if that's the way it works, the caster would be better off not using intuition and just taking 2 actions.  Also, I imagine a higher level version that lasts for a scene, so you could avoid setting off a trap, or decide to try bribing someone rather than intimidating them.  If you don't want to bother with splitting rounds that way, then you could just make the duration 2 rounds instead.  I suppose it could last for the caster's next 2 half actions or 1 full action, but that seems more awkward than it's worth to me.  And really, even making the duration 9 rounds only makes the spell marginally better.  My only concern about duration is that it doesn't last long enough to work on actions that take 1 minute or more.  There would still be some occasional weirdness, like the 2 round ambush check you get with ambush basics, but those are uncommon enough that it's probably easier to deal with them at the table than to adjust the spell to account for them.
Logged

Who's the more foolish, the fool or tfwfh?
Pages: 1 [2] 3 Go Up Print 
« previous next »
Jump to:  


Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.13 | SMF © 2006-2011, Simple Machines LLC Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!