Acrobatics and Bypassing Adjacent squares.

[SilvercatMoonpaw]

I've been re-reading the core book, and got to the Tumble (through enemy/adjacent squares) description to find that it's DC 10 + 5 per enemy adjacent to the path.

So if you want to get past 1 enemy that's only DC 15.  Has anyone found this to be on the low side of difficulty?

I don't ask to complain or make a house-rule, I just want to be sure of my tactics: were it to be the case I'd want to avoid situations where there's only one enemy "guarding" a path.

[Coyote0273]

By passing 1 enemy is relatively easy. But the diff goes up very very fast. 2 is 20, 3 is 25, 4 is 30. If you're a highly skilled acrobat, you're supposed to be able to run around a stationary guy, you spent all those points. But, yeah, when you trying to leap through mobs and such, so very not easy.

[SilvercatMoonpaw]

It's not so much "skill" acrobats I'm worried about, it anyone who isn't but might still might be able to make DC 15.

And remember by "worried" I mean "I want to make sure I don't make that tactical mistake" (whether enemies do is another matter).

[Coyote0273]

Think of this way, whenever you watch two guys in a sparring match (from boxing, to UFC to TKD matches, whatever), how often do they dance around each other and switch spots or move past each other for a better spot?

15 DC acrobatics check.

Even if you have no ranks it in, it's possible (even if unlikely) to do. And if you only put a few ranks in it, you'll only get past 1 guy on average, 2 if you're very lucky, 3 with exploding action dice.

[Krensky]

Also, and this is just opinion, I feel keeping the numbers attainable with minimal investment is key to keeping the battlefiele fluid considering the nature of Fantasy Craft's adjacency rules. A fighter can't just take a hit to circle around or move past an enemy, so making Tumble a viable choice for those with only a few points on the skill is crucial to prevent fights from becoming static.

[SilvercatMoonpaw]

Yes, I have no problem with that.

I just want to know how easy people have found it to make the DC 15 check without too much investment.

This question is about strategy, not whether a rule is good or not.

[Krensky]

That's what table 7.21 on page 370 is for.

'Average' PC with a Dex of 13 and no ranks has a 35% chance. One with a 14 and 2 ranks has a 50% chance. 14 and 4 ranks has a 60% chance.

[tfwfh]

I don't think it's a problem.  I agree that moving past one opponent shouldn't be exceptionally difficult, even for a low level, untrained character.  It's also worth keeping in mind that all but the most acrobatically focused characters will have at least -1 ACP by the end of their first adventure, and probably -2.  That drops the previously mentioned 13 Dex, 0 ranks character to a %25 chance of successfully moving past 1 opponent.  That feels about right to me.

[SilvercatMoonpaw]

Why do people keep responding as if I said I think it's a problem?

[Bill Whitmore]

I wouldn't be tactically worried about an untrained tumbler in a fight (from the tumbling perspective, he may still put on the beat-down with his bashing board).

If there is only one opponent, it doesn't normally matter which side he is standing on, so the rest of this assumes we aren't talking about 1 on 1 combat.  I am also talking about general combat tactics with one group facing off with another group without specific battlefield conditions or goals, like defending the king from assassins or trying not to be pushed off a cliff.

Unless a character has a lot of Sneak Attack or some other ability that only works with a flank, they're better off just attacking twice than trying to tumble to possibly gain a flank for a +2 bonus with 1 attack.  The untrained tumbler is more likely to be just wasting an action to move his 5 feet rather than take his free 5 foot step.

Also, tumbling behind someone often puts the tumbling character in danger of being flanked himself by one (or more) of his targets allies.

Unless in something like a dungeon with tight terrain, many characters are fast enough to just completely circle around the enemy without needing to pass adjacent to the enemy and avoid tumbling altogether.  If the opponent is too close together to circle around, they are most likely too close together for an untrained character to tumble through.  (Yes, there is an edge case where an untrained tumbler can try to go through 10 foot gap between opponents)

So what about the guy who has a lot of Sneak Attack, gains a lot of other bonuses when flanking his target, has something like Darting Weapon to get more attacks, is immune to flanking himself and isn't fast enough to just run a circle around his opponent?  He's the guy who will most likely have trained tumble checks.

In conclusion, while it is possible for an untrained character to tumble past one guy, my experience at the table is it doesn't happen very often (Read: at all).  If the guy gets significant flanking bonuses, he'll have tumble.  Conversely, a guy who is untrained in tumble will likely lack the ability to inflict serious (extra) harm even if he got there.

[SilvercatMoonpaw]

In conclusion, while it is possible for an untrained character to tumble past one guy, my experience at the table is it doesn't happen very often (Read: at all).

Okay, I suppose that's what I was looking for.  Thanks.

[LordKruelos]

In conclusion, while it is possible for an untrained character to tumble past one guy, my experience at the table is it doesn't happen very often (Read: at all).

Okay, I suppose that's what I was looking for.  Thanks.

Additionally, you can consider making it an opposed check vs Special Characters.
ie, with a good roll, any hero can slip past a single mook.
Heroes with good acrobatics or luck can maybe escape 2-3
Acrobats might be able to routinely escape packs of mooks
But Special Characters get the chance to react/oppose -- perhaps with Tactics, perhaps with Acrobatics.

[SilvercatMoonpaw]

Additionally, you can consider making it an opposed check vs Special Characters.

Maybe this should be a feat: "One-Man Wall".  I can definitely see this as as a wizened-old-master talent.

[LordKruelos]

Additionally, you can consider making it an opposed check vs Special Characters.

Maybe this should be a feat: "One-Man Wall".  I can definitely see this as as a wizened-old-master talent.

(Opinion)
As written, any character can Ready an action to react to/preempt an opponent tumbling

The question is what is the cost of allowing a special character to make an opposed check vs the Acrobatics user without Readying an action. As I see it, the options include:
1) Ad Hoc GM decision for some characters on whatever criteria they decide (e.g. Anyone with a higher Acrobatics bonus)
2) As above, with the added cost of paying an Action Die to oppose the Acrobatics check (perhaps if they don't meet the criteria in 1 above)
3) A trick, similar to Parry
One-Man Wall
Once per round when the character’s not flat-footed, and an opponent attempt to tumble past, he may make a
Reflex save (or Acrobatics or Tactics check) (DC equal to the opposed Acrobatics check result). With success, the opponent's movement stops in a square adjacent to the character. With failure, the character is flat-footed.
4) This ability rises to the level of a feat or part of a feat.

As a GM, I tend to roll with #1 and 2 as reasonably appropriate.
#3 seems appropriate if I were to make that option consistently available to PCs.

I think it'd need some extra oomph to rise to the level of a Feat.