I just bought FantasyCraft, and I really wanted to like it, but...

[aegis]

So you're in favor of AP being universal then? Am I understanding you correctly?

That's what he's saying. More specifically, Resistance is no longer immune to AP, it is simply categorized DR that only works against the named damage type and stacks with generic DR when calculating the total DR vs its named type.

Since we're talking basic DR functioning, there's something Fantasy Craft has inherited from d20 that I honestly dislike, it's DR/bypass, mostly because it's a pain in the ass to keep track of (especially when you already have DR and/or Resistances). Hopefully, there are few of those in the game (I think the Infernalist is one such case). But still, what I would prefer is just DR, and the fact that the Achille's heel quality also automatically bypasses all DR and Resistances, so it can be used jointly.

Another side effect of that small change would be that creatures that have, for instance, Lethal Defiance (or even Immunity) would still take full damage from silver weapons if they have the Achille's heel (silver) quality. I imagine you see where I'm going here ...

[Crafty_Pat]

So you're in favor of AP being universal then? Am I understanding you correctly?

That's what he's saying. More specifically, Resistance is no longer immune to AP, it is simply categorized DR that only works against the named damage type and stacks with generic DR when calculating the total DR vs its named type.

Since we're talking basic DR functioning, there's something Fantasy Craft has inherited from d20 that I honestly dislike, it's DR/bypass, mostly because it's a pain in the ass to keep track of (especially when you already have DR and/or Resistances). Hopefully, there are few of those in the game (I think the Infernalist is one such case). But still, what I would prefer is just DR, and the fact that the Achille's heel quality also automatically bypasses all DR and Resistances, so it can be used jointly.

Another side effect of that small change would be that creatures that have, for instance, Lethal Defiance (or even Immunity) would still take full damage from silver weapons if they have the Achille's heel (silver) quality. I imagine you see where I'm going here ...

I'm confused. Can you elaborate?

[Big_Jim]

So you're in favor of AP being universal then? Am I understanding you correctly?

That's what he's saying. More specifically, Resistance is no longer immune to AP, it is simply categorized DR that only works against the named damage type and stacks with generic DR when calculating the total DR vs its named type.

Since we're talking basic DR functioning, there's something Fantasy Craft has inherited from d20 that I honestly dislike, it's DR/bypass, mostly because it's a pain in the ass to keep track of (especially when you already have DR and/or Resistances). Hopefully, there are few of those in the game (I think the Infernalist is one such case). But still, what I would prefer is just DR, and the fact that the Achille's heel quality also automatically bypasses all DR and Resistances, so it can be used jointly.

Another side effect of that small change would be that creatures that have, for instance, Lethal Defiance (or even Immunity) would still take full damage from silver weapons if they have the Achille's heel (silver) quality. I imagine you see where I'm going here ...

I'm confused. Can you elaborate?

I think what Aegis is saying is this (paraphrased):

Let's say a werewolf has DR1(Fortunes of War I) and DR3/silver (Classic werewolfyness) and Achilles heel (silver). that means he has DR4 vs everything not silver, and DR1 vs silver. That can be a pain to keep up with. Instead, let's have Achilles heel (silver) do the heavy lifting.  So the werewolf now has DR4 (total) and Achilles heel (silver). So if the werewolf takes 10 points of damage from a silver dagger it would work like this in the two system.

Normal system: 10 points of damage from a silver dagger.  Only the Fortunes of War I DR works, because of the /silver; so take 9.  Achilles heel (silver) kicks in and the werewolf also takes 10 lethal minus the total DR (because the damage is coming from the Achilles heel (silver) quality and is only typed as lethal; so take 6. Total damage: 15 points.

Aegis's system: 10 points of damage from a silver dagger. You get the full 4DR vs the attack because under Aegis's suggestion you don't have an DR weakness; so take 6.  Achilles heel (silver) kicks in and the werewolf also takes 10 lethal. No DR works because it's the Achilles heel effect; so take 10. Total damage: 16 points.

[Crafty_Pat]

That's a fair suggestion. Will consider.

[TheTSKoala]

Especially since in real life trauma is both a death spiral and a I'm fine, I'm fine, I' dead system depending on countless factors.

Yeah.. then we'd have to find rules for the "Killswitch" effect caused by blast waves!  ..which.. not a doctor here.. but I don't think there's a solid medical reason for as of yet?

If you mean what I think you mean, then what you're looking for is probably Hydrostatic Shock

You, sir, get a Eucalyptus cookie.  That is exactly what I mean.

[aegis]

Also, The Hurt Locker's first scene.

Let's say a werewolf has DR1(Fortunes of War I) and DR3/silver (Classic werewolfyness) and Achilles heel (silver). that means he has DR4 vs everything not silver, and DR1 vs silver. That can be a pain to keep up with. Instead, let's have Achilles heel (silver) do the heavy lifting.  So the werewolf now has DR4 (total) and Achilles heel (silver). So if the werewolf takes 10 points of damage from a silver dagger it would work like this in the two system.

Normal system: 10 points of damage from a silver dagger.  Only the Fortunes of War I DR works, because of the /silver; so take 9.  Achilles heel (silver) kicks in and the werewolf also takes 10 lethal minus the total DR (because the damage is coming from the Achilles heel (silver) quality and is only typed as lethal; so take 6. Total damage: 15 points.

Aegis's system: 10 points of damage from a silver dagger. You get the full 4DR vs the attack because under Aegis's suggestion you don't have an DR weakness; so take 6.  Achilles heel (silver) kicks in and the werewolf also takes 10 lethal. No DR works because it's the Achilles heel effect; so take 10. Total damage: 16 points.

Thanks Jim, that's what I meant. That, or even the DR is forfeit entirely, whatever works best.

And my second point was: I'm building a smoke demon from a Conan novel, who is immune to all physical attacks, but takes damage from fire and silver items (big damage by the way). So what I'd like to do is a monster with Damage Imunity (Lethal, Subdual) and Achille's Heel (fire, silver). The problem, the way Achille's Heel is phrased in 2nd printing, is that the monster is going to take double lethal damage from each attack with a silver weapon; so the immunity still applies. Per the RAW of course, nothing prevents me to play as I want. But I thought it was worth mentioning.

Edit: Oh, and something stupid just crossed my mind. What about a graded Achille's Heel quality? It's not going to be usefull everyday, but in many stories, the monster is nigh-invincible but can be killed with a single blow if the right means is used. That can be done with a graded quality I think. Either each grade multiplies the damage once more, or the second grade applies the extra damage directly to wounds (or makes the NPC automatically fail a damage save) when the weakness is exploited! Crazy, right?

[Sletchman]

Edit: Oh, and something stupid just crossed my mind. What about a graded Achille's Heel quality? It's not going to be usefull everyday, but in many stories, the monster is nigh-invincible but can be killed with a single blow if the right means is used. That can be done with a graded quality I think. Either each grade multiplies the damage once more, or the second grade applies the extra damage directly to wounds (or makes the NPC automatically fail a damage save) when the weakness is exploited! Crazy, right?

Archille's Heel I: Your DR offers no protection against this attack, regardless of its source.
Archille's Heel II: As Archille's Heel I, plus any damage dealt is doubled.
Archille's Heel III: As Archille's Heel II, plus you automatically fail any save prompted by the damage dealt by this attack.

Like this?

EDIT: Went for something that struck me as more balanced, rather then directly translating your idea into a graded quality.  It could be total fail.

[Sletchman]

As we mentioned over in the Spycraft Third forum, we're not ready to talk about that design yet, and probably won't be for several months.

Don't get bummed about that guys.  Under this new system of not telling us anything about stuff until it's practically off to the printers, that means they expect to be nearly done within a few months.  Before GenCon if Pat's other post in the SC3 thread is to be believed and interpreted optimistically.

I'd be seriously shocked if we see anything concrete on SC3 this year at all.  Remember - we're still waiting on 2 books that we bought 7 months ago (start of August) and all this time later there is still no concrete info on them.  Hell one of the ones I'm waiting on is useless to me because everyone I know wanted it to be something else (they all wanted Mistborn to be a FC setting book with a new magic system).

Honestly, if it wasn't for the fact that the system is great and I really like the guys themselves, I'd be playing something else.

[Mister Andersen]

Well, it's a smoke monster, so you stick it with the spirit quality and don't need to worry about regular damage?

Achilles Heel: You are always susceptable to damage of this type or source, and receive no benefit from damage reduction or resistance. Additionally, critical damage of this type may be activated for one less action die than usual

[Sletchman]

Well, it's a smoke monster, so you stick it with the spirit quality and don't need to worry about regular damage?

Achilles Heel: You are always susceptable to damage of this type or source, and receive no benefit from damage reduction or resistance. Additionally, critical damage of this type may be activated for one less action die than usual

That's pretty tight, Mr A (though you might want to put something about lethal damage - something I forgot to myself - to avoid a reply of the whole archilles heel / invulnerable issue).  I could see something like this becoming a house rule in future.

I still like the idea of a graded quality though, now that Aegis has planted that seed.  You could probably call your version I and then for II make it double damage (and possibility make III you always fail the save, if wanted).

[Krensky]

Achilles Heel III is really just Mr. A's and the mook quality.

[Mister Andersen]

I don't think you need to grade it: remember that it's a PC option, so knowing that AH is AH is AH makes life simpler.

Thinking about it, I've dumped the whole ignoring DR thing -- it would otherwise make something like Rootwalker armour utterly pointless -- for something a bit cooler.

Achilles Heel: You are always susceptable to damage sources of this type and any subsequent damage they generate, even if you ordinarily possess other character options that would make you resistant or immune. Additionally, attacks targeting your Achilles Heel gain the Keen (30) quality and automatically inflict a Critical Injury.

[Sletchman]

I'm not a fan.  You are set on fire so you suddenly break your leg?  Almost none of the critical injuries make no sense with too many of the damage types.  Interesting in theory, but I'm not sure it'll work in practice.

Someone who has their books remind me - does Keen target death by massive damage?  The Keen 30 would be probably too brutal in that case and PCs would avoid it like the freaking plague - autokilling would be entirely too common (every attack in a Fragile Heroes campaign...).

Achilles Heel III is really just Mr. A's and the mook quality.

Some would argue that since I was first, that his quality is just mine minus Mook...

Either way it's not like I'm attached to it, just a quick idea based on what Aegis said.

[tfwfh]

I don't think you need to grade it: remember that it's a PC option, so knowing that AH is AH is AH makes life simpler.

Thinking about it, I've dumped the whole ignoring DR thing -- it would otherwise make something like Rootwalker armour utterly pointless -- for something a bit cooler.

Achilles Heel: You are always susceptable to damage sources of this type and any subsequent damage they generate, even if you ordinarily possess other character options that would make you resistant or immune. Additionally, attacks targeting your Achilles Heel gain the Keen (30) quality and automatically inflict a Critical Injury.

I think, keeping in mind that Achilles Heel is a PC option like you say, it's better to keep it separate from any insta-kill effects.  In the same light, I think it should also not invalidate DR and resistances.  A rootwalker wearing a nomex suit should be a least a little more resistant to fire than a naked rootwalker.  Especially if that rootwalker is a player character.

I think the better way to model a near or complete invulnerability to all but one specific source would be as an optional component of the damage immunity and damage defiance qualities.

[Sletchman]

I think the better way to model a near or complete invulnerability to all but one specific source would be as an optional component of the damage immunity and damage defiance qualities.

Easy: Damage Immunity (Lethal, Stress, Subdual).  Archille's Heel ([BLAH]).

Should make you immune to being damaged except by [BLAH].   Doesn't really need new rules when you get down to it.  I think the idea is to make good a little bit better, rather then fill a hole.  I could have been operating under false assumptions though.