Quick Question about Bows

[Krensky]

Of course, I seem to recall when this came up regarding Guard from greatsword basics that they didn't stack.

[Bill Whitmore]

Of course, I seem to recall when this came up regarding Guard from greatsword basics that they didn't stack.

Correct, because guard was restructured to be a gear bonus in the second printing.

"When armed, the wielder gains the listed gear bonus to Defense."

Only the highest named bonus of each category is used, with the exception of Dodge bonuses, which has its own exception.

[Krensky]

Except that the text for Greatsword Basics says the same thing as Bow Basics. So if Bow Basics and a Longbow is AP 4, Greatsword Basics and a Zweihander should be Guard +3.

[Coyote0273]

Unless it's specifically stated otherwise (such as Thick Hide not stacking with Armor) everything in this game stacks. The DR a soldier gains from his class abilities stacks with armor DR. AP from feats stacks with the weapons.

High AP isn't as useful, however, as it sounds, as unless you're fighting massive armored monsters that make Godzilla look like a set of tissue paper, you'll rarely run into more than 4 to 6 points of DR. So that AP 10? Rarely useful.

Also remember tho, that Damage Resistance isn't affected by AP. Just Damage Reduction.

[Bill Whitmore]

Except that the text for Greatsword Basics says the same thing as Bow Basics. So if Bow Basics and a Longbow is AP 4, Greatsword Basics and a Zweihander should be Guard +3.

Except is isn't really AP 4, it is AP 2 and AP 2.  Since they are both unnamed bonuses they can stack when applied to DR.

The Zweihander and Greatsword Basics feat give you Guard +1 and Guard +2.  These are both named bonuses of the same group, in this case, Gear.  Since you use only the highest bonus from each named bonus type you can only add the +2 Gear Bonus to Defense in this case.

This can be seen more clearly if you compare the text of Greatsword Basics with Shield Supremacy.  With Greatsword Basics the weapon gains Guard +2.  With Shield Supremacy the shield's Guard quality is increased by 2.

For those that may not already know, this changing of the Guard quality stems from a root cause of the Many-Armed and Shield Supremacy feats.  Many-Armed allowed a character to wield up to six 1-handed weapons.  This character could then wield 5 (or even 6) Tower Shields, each of which had Guard +5, due to Shield Supremacy, adding +25 (or +30) to the character's Defense.  This problem was rectified by making all Guard bonuses gear bonuses and updating the Shield Supremacy feat to increase a shield's guard quality instead of just adding an additional guard +2.

Entering House rule territory:

Now, that is the rules as written but I can definitely see a case for allowing the feat and base equipment to stack.  Though it isn't an "official" house rule, for games I run I tend to treat all of the bonuses gained from equipment as Gear bonuses and all of the bonuses gained from feats and Origins as Insight bonuses.  Using that method, adding the AP upgrade (gear bonus) to an existing weapons AP (gear bonus) doesn't work, but adding the AP 2 from the feat (Insight bonus) would work fine.  AP from bows will stack with AP from their ammunition because there is a specific proviso that allows it, similar to the proviso that Dodge bonuses can stack with other Dodge bonuses.

Likewise with Guard, Zweihander Basics would give a Guard +2 Insight bonus while the weapon gives a Guard +1 Gear bonus.  Since these bonuses are both of different types, they would stack.  If you were using monkey grip to wield the Greatsword in one hand with a Tower shield, the Guard +1 from the Zweihander would not stack with the Shields greater guard bonus, but the +2 Guard bonus from the feat would stack as the Insight Bonus would still stack with the Gear bonus.

One of the reason I have made this an "official" campaign quality for my game is I have not studied all the other possible ramifcations, such as Origin benefits stacking with feat benefits (which I would want) and the interaction with certain spells which may also use Insight bonuses (which I may or may not want to stack with origins and feats).

[Krensky]

Except is isn't really AP 4, it is AP 2 and AP 2.  Since they are both unnamed bonuses they can stack when applied to DR.

Yeah... Except AP 2 isn't a bonus. It's a quality.

The Zweihander and Greatsword Basics feat give you Guard +1 and Guard +2.  These are both named bonuses of the same group, in this case, Gear.  Since you use only the highest bonus from each named bonus type you only add the +2 Gear Bonus to Defense in this case.

Guard +1 and Guard +2 aren't bonuses either. They're qualities. So if having the AP 2 quality twice results in AP 4, why doesn't having Guard +2 and Guard +1 equal Guard +3? Remember, these aren't bonuses, they're qualities.

This can be seen more clearly if you compare the text of Greatsword Basics with Shield Supremacy.  With Greatsword Basics the weapon gains Guard +2.  With Shield Supremacy the shield's Guard quality is increased by 2.

Which supports my argument that Bow Basics AP and Longbow AP shouldn't stack. Otherwise Bow Basics would use that language. The only thing that supports that they do is Alex's specific reply, even though its opposite of what the rules say everywhere else.

Similarly, by your logic a character who has SD 15 from some character option and then has Spell Immunity cast on them now has SD 65 against the targeted spells.

From a logical standpoint, changing the text of Fortunes of War to be a bonus to DR, removing the '+' from the Guard quality (so Guard 1, Guard 2, etc) and then stating that fixed values (DR, SR, Qualities, etc) don't stack while numerical bonuses do (with the current rules) solves all of this.

[Khaalis]

One of the reason I have made this an "official" campaign quality for my game is I have not studied all the other possible ramifcations, such as Origin benefits stacking with feat benefits (which I would want) and the interaction with certain spells which may also use Insight bonuses (which I may or may not want to stack with origins and feats).

Just to clarify, this IS or ISN'T an official campaign quality for your game? Slightly confused by the wording.

[Bill Whitmore]

Except is isn't really AP 4, it is AP 2 and AP 2.  Since they are both unnamed bonuses they can stack when applied to DR.

Yeah... Except AP 2 isn't a bonus. It's a quality.

True, and nothing prevents you from having the same quality multiple times.  Really, in the example above, you don't have AP 10, you have AP2, AP2, AP2, AP2, and AP2.  When you hit something, each quality reduces the DR of the target.  Actually thinking of it this way makes enough sense to me now that I will likely drop the aforementioned Gear bonus qualifier from AP in my house rule above.

The Zweihander and Greatsword Basics feat give you Guard +1 and Guard +2.  These are both named bonuses of the same group, in this case, Gear.  Since you use only the highest bonus from each named bonus type you only add the +2 Gear Bonus to Defense in this case.

Guard +1 and Guard +2 aren't bonuses either. They're qualities. So if having the AP 2 quality twice results in AP 4, why doesn't having Guard +2 and Guard +1 equal Guard +3? Remember, these aren't bonuses, they're qualities.

They are a quality, yes, but they give a bonus.  If you have 2 separate qualities and one adds +1 Gear bonus to Defense and one adds +2 Gear bonus to Defense, you don't get to stack them.

Shield Supremacy doesn't add an additional Guard quality, it increases an existing one.

This can be seen more clearly if you compare the text of Greatsword Basics with Shield Supremacy.  With Greatsword Basics the weapon gains Guard +2.  With Shield Supremacy the shield's Guard quality is increased by 2.

Which supports my argument that Bow Basics AP and Longbow AP shouldn't stack. Otherwise Bow Basics would use that language. The only thing that supports that they do is Alex's specific reply, even though its opposite of what the rules say everywhere else.

Bow Basics doesn't need to use that language, again because nothing prevents you from having the same quality multiple times.  Multiple applications of AP2 are perfectly valid.

Multiple copies of Guard each give a different Gear Bonus and you can only apply one of them.

Technically, I guess a character sheet shouldn't say "AP 10" on those Long Bows with all the upgrades and feats, it should say "AP 2, AP 2, AP 2, AP 2, AP 2" but since AP 10 is functionally identical and less than a fifth of the space, I suspect "AP 10" will continue to see use.

Similarly, by your logic a character who has SD 15 from some character option and then has Spell Immunity cast on them now has SD 65 against the targeted spells.

I don't see multiple Spell Defenses as stacking as they are, again, separate qualities.  Say I have Spell Defense 15, 25, and 50 against a Spell casting check of 40.  I check the total against each quality and see that Spell Defense 15 and 25 don't really help me, but the Spell Defense 50 does.  If the Spell casting check had been 55, then even the last quality wouldn't have been able to save me.

From a logical standpoint, changing the text of Fortunes of War to be a bonus to DR, removing the '+' from the Guard quality (so Guard 1, Guard 2, etc) and then stating that fixed values (DR, SR, Qualities, etc) don't stack while numerical bonuses do (with the current rules) solves all of this.

Actually, the more I look at it, the more I think it has already been solved.

One of the reason I have made this an "official" campaign quality for my game is I have not studied all the other possible ramifcations, such as Origin benefits stacking with feat benefits (which I would want) and the interaction with certain spells which may also use Insight bonuses (which I may or may not want to stack with origins and feats).

Just to clarify, this IS or ISN'T an official campaign quality for your game? Slightly confused by the wording.

Sorry, there was a typo in there.  That should be "One of the reason I haven't made...".  There are too many combinations of abilities for me to be comfortable with making a blanket rule with regards to typing all feat and origin bonuses.  One of the advantages I have as a GM vs a rulebook publisher is I have that luxury.

[Krensky]

True, and nothing prevents you from having the same quality multiple times.  Really, in the example above, you don't have AP 10, you have AP2, AP2, AP2, AP2, and AP2.  When you hit something, each quality reduces the DR of the target.  Actually thinking of it this way makes enough sense to me now that I will likely drop the aforementioned Gear bonus qualifier from AP in my house rule above.

AP 2 five times is still AP 2. Having bleed twice doesn't make the target have to save twice. AP has a special exception for weapon and ammo, it doesn't have one for having the quality multiple times.

They are a quality, yes, but they give a bonus.  If you have 2 separate qualities and one adds +1 Gear bonus to Defense and one adds +2 Gear bonus to Defense, you don't get to stack them.

Shield Supremacy doesn't add an additional Guard quality, it increases an existing one.

And if Bow Basics was supposed to increase the AP of a bow that already had AP, it should have said so. As it is DR works one way, SD works another, AP a third, threat and error ranges a fourth, keen likely a fifth, and everything else a some other way.

Bow Basics doesn't need to use that language, again because nothing prevents you from having the same quality multiple times.  Multiple applications of AP2 are perfectly valid.

And shouldn't result in anything other than AP 2. Except that it's another weird exception. Well, not really since there's no actual rule for how this is supposed to work. Each time it comes up it's handled differently.

I don't see multiple Spell Defenses as stacking as they are, again, separate qualities.  Say I have Spell Defense 15, 25, and 50 against a Spell casting check of 40.  I check the total against each quality and see that Spell Defense 15 and 25 don't really help me, but the Spell Defense 50 does.  If the Spell casting check had been 55, then even the last quality wouldn't have been able to save me.

And you don't see multiple instances of AP 2 as separate qualities? This is my point. The rules are not consistent here and aren't even logically inconsistent.

Actually, the more I look at it, the more I think it has already been solved.

How is having six different rules for this solved?

[Bill Whitmore]

How is having six different rules for this solved?

Because I don't apply 6 different rules, I apply one rule.  Each quality is kept separate and gets applied in turn, even if it means I have to apply multiple sources of the same quality from different sources.

If a guy has DR 5, I apply AP 2, which reduces it to DR 3.  Then I apply AP 2, which reduces it to DR 1  Then I apply the third AP 2 which eliminates the DR.  Then the last two AP 2s get applied but don't do anything since the DR is already reduced to 0.

If a guy has Greatsword Basics and a Zweihander, I apply Guard +2 from the feat.  Then I apply Guard +1 from the Zweihander.  Since each one gives a Gear bonus, only the highest one applies.


Beyond that, I don't see much more point in continuing this conversation.  We are getting down to arguing in circles.  I don't really have a better way to state anything else and you obviously think it works in a way different than I do.  I don't even agree with "Having bleed twice doesn't make the target have to save twice" since I haven't seen anything to indicate it wouldn't trigger multiple save requirements.

If I come up with anything new to add to the argument, I'll come back and post it.

[Krensky]

The other issue with your view is that it renders the Heavy Crossbow pointless. A Longbow with the armor piercing upgrade applied twice is cheaper, lighter, faster, has more AP, and is easier to make.

[Bill Whitmore]

The other issue with your view is that it renders the Heavy Crossbow pointless. A Longbow with the armor piercing upgrade applied twice is cheaper, lighter, faster, has more AP, and is easier to make.

Oh good, new ground.

You can't apply the AP upgrade (or any upgrade) twice to a Long Bow.  "Each upgrade may be added to an item only once." (154-155 under Gear/Upgrades)

Besides, it's an apples to oranges comparison.  The Heavy Crossbow has a longer range increment and a higher threat range, both of which I value over additional, usually worthless AP, so it is hardly rendered pointless.  It's actually my single-shot range weapon of choice for ambush situations where I intend to close to melee beyond the first shot/surprise round after the target is no longer flat-footed anyways.

[Mister Andersen]

AP 2 five times is still AP 2. Having bleed twice doesn't make the target have to save twice. AP has a special exception for weapon and ammo, it doesn't have one for having the quality multiple times.

Sorry, but you're flat out wrong. AP stacks. Regardless of where you source it from.

[Krensky]

Mr A,

If you're going to jump in at the end of a discussion, please be kind enough to read it where I responded to that, admitting clearly that it was the case before to conversation moved onto why it's another weird case where there's a different rule for each case rather then simply implying I'm an idiot.

[Crafty_Pat]

Tone, people. Tone.