Quick Question about Bows

[Korik1]

I just want to make sure I've got this right.

A large character with Bow Basics, an Ogre Longbow, and Ogre Standard Arrows is shooting 1d8 Lethal Damage with AP10?

I'm not sure if ALL of the APs stack. I know the APs from Longbow, Standard Arrows, and Bow Basics stack, but do the Ogre qualities of the arrows and bow both stack? Can you Ogre-fy arrows?

[Dreamstreamer]

Just as Damage Reduction does not stack, I don't think Armor Piercing stacks. It isn't an unnamed bonus. It is a quality. I believe you just take whichever quality is the highest.

Edit: I see that Armor Piercing gets to combine the quality of the weapon with the ammunition, so amend what I said before. Using that math, I'm getting an AP of 4 when both the bow and the arrow are AP. Where are you getting the rest?

Edit 2: Then again, I see on page 237 that Armor Piercing can be added multiple times to a Natural or Extraordinary Attack. So, I guess I don't know how to rule that...

[Krensky]

Weapon AP and ammo AP stack.

DR from different sources stacks. The DR from two different pieces of armor do not stack. A Soldier gets both his armor's DR and his class DR, for instance. If it didn't, Fortunes of War would be worthless most of the time.

That said, an Ogre crafted bow firing Ogre crafted arrows has AP 4 since the Ogre upgrade has to do wit forcing morale checks. Incidently, I wouldn't allow it to trigger two checks, although I'd probably only allow an ogre-crfted bow to trigger them within Close Quarters. Ogre arrows could do so at longer ranges.

Bow Basics grants AP 2 to all bows, so it doesn't do much to a Longbow or Heavy Crossbow, but it does do things for Reflex bows, Short bows, Hand Crossbows, etc.

[VisualStatic]

I always thought the AP from Bow Basics also stacks with Weapon and Arrows.  I.e  a character with Bow Basics, Long Bow and Standard arrows would have a AP 6.

[Krensky]

It won't break things to do it that way, but that's not how the rules read.

[Desertpuma]

Well the combination of Longbow, Standard Arrows and Bow Basics gives you AP4 with 1D6 damage certainly. ...
Ogre Craftsmanship does nothing for AP but it does force a DC15 Morale Check because the weapon looks scary (check goes against a mob or 1 special adversary). ...
Giving the bow an additional level of Armor Piercing as a customization would grant AP 4 if it stacks (which would push the calculation to AP 6 at the beginning of my post). ...
A Large weapon of 1D6 damage becomes 1D8 damage.

So right now I see an Ogre Craftsman Longbow that is Large size doing 1D8 damage per arrow with AP 8. The size of the weapon is reflected in the actual damage code and not in the AP.

AP 8 is nothing to sneeze at either. Consider that a set of Dwarven crafted Platemail w/Heavy Fittings is DR 8 (not counting a shield which can grant up to Guard +3). That's some serious DR and as a result you will have built a bow with some serious AP. But also consider how much potential overkill there is with much AP and how slow your opponent might be too.

Edit: Yep, Bow Basics only affects the weapon itself not the arrows.

[Korik1]

Thanks everyone. I'm thinking that the edition I'm looking at must be a first printing, since it mentions nothing about intimidate checks. I'll have to let my friend know.

[Krensky]

Bow Basics, as written, does grant any change to a long bow. Bow Basics grants AP 2 to the Longbow. The Longbow already has AP 2. Bow Basics and a Longbow is AP 2.

Same with applying the Armor Piercing Upgrade to a Longbow, it already has AP 2 so it doesn't do anything more. Well, it would apply to one with the spike quality, I suppose.

Bow Basics + Armor Piecing Bow + Armor Piercing Standard Arrows = AP 4 and a lot of wasted silver.

This is the advantage of the Heavy Crossbow. AP 7.

[Desertpuma]

Huh. The text for Bow Basics says: "When you wield a bow, it gains AP 2...." which would imply that it adds AP 2 to an already existing weapon. I'm also not seeing where it states it does not stack with what a weapon would already have.

Maybe my search-fu sucks at the moment but I cannot find a reference point for it right now.

[Krensky]

AP 2 is a fixed value, not a numerical bonus.

The Longbow gains AP 2 but since it already has AP 2, it has no effect.

[Illithar]

Hmmm...

I had asked a similar question some time ago about this same thing and Alex responded with a yes.

Link: http://www.crafty-games.com/forum/index.php?topic=4497.0

[Desertpuma]

That's what I had thought then and now...

[Krensky]

Well, that overrides Morg's statement regarding fixed value vs bonuses when we were discussing DR and SR.

Darn special cases.

[Bill Whitmore]

By RAW, my understanding is they do stack, as they are all unnamed bonuses.

A Long Bow with the AP upgrade firing standard Arrows with the AP upgrade combined with a feat that gives AP 2 to bows would have AP 10.

AP 6 (Long Bow with AP upgrade and Bow Basics) + AP 4 (Standard Arrow with AP upgrade) = AP 10



Along the same vein, if you gain Cold Resistance 10 from Angelic Legacy and Cold Resistance 5 from Pathfinder Basics(Arctic) they would stack, being that they are both unnamed bonuses.

[Desertpuma]

Gotcha! Thanks for chiming in Bill.