Aurora Skies (Earth Defence 2.0 setting discussion)

[RusVal]

Random stuff:

Hey Krensky, got more of this stuff to share?

Note to anyone who wants to help stat laser weapons, all must have at least one laser sight type upgrade (scope, side-barrel attachment, etc.), which represents the firing mechanism that some RL laser weapons use (small laser to "clear a path" for the larger laser).

So, was that a yes or no on the fox-people?  Heck with it, I'm going to whip up a post about 'em anyways and see what people think...

Also, have you seen the new Floaters?  Man they look awesome.

[RusVal]

An idea struck me the other day while I was reading about how the new XCOM is handling ammo (infinite, though units still need to reload) for a new campaign quality (though I might need some help balancing it):

Bottomless ammo pouches ( - XP ): Whether it is because your backing agency has decided to fully back a mission, or your freelance group have saved up for this specific endeavor, the PCs have more than enough ammo to burn.  However, because this tends to cause agents to ignore things like "conservation of fire", the wear and tear on guns usually increases.

Any weapon with a magazine (or clip, or whatever) of 5 shots or more are considered to have an "infinite stockpile", though PCs will still need to reload.

Also, each weapon has a "standard magazine (or clip, or whatever) size, and usage of any "non-standard" sizes effects the weapon's error range, determined by half the difference between the "storage stockpile" of the "standard" size with that of the one being used, and increasing the error range by the answer (rounded up) if the "standard" is higher, or decreasing the error range (minimum 0) by the answer (rounded down, or up if the difference is only 1) if the standard is lower.

Example: A standard 5.56mm NATO assault rifle uses 30-round magazines, which has a storage stockpile of 5.
The agent has the option to instead use 20-round magazines, with a storage stockpile of 8, which will decrease the error range by 1 (8-5=3, 3*.5=1.5, rounded down).
Conversely, the agent can opt to use 100-round drums, with a storage stockpile of 1, which will increase the error range by 2 (5-1=4, 4*.5=2).

Also, any option which allows a PC to take an extra stockpile of ammo (feat, class ability, trading gear picks) instead increases the storage stockpile by one for the size they are using, and recalculates the error range by the new difference.  If the size used is the standard, then the new storage stockpile is treated as a different size, and is calculated as normal.

Example: An agent using 20-round magazines trades some gun upgrades to increase the stockpile once, which increases the storage stockpile by 1, which now decreases the error range by 2 (9-5=4, 4*.5=2).
If the agent was instead using 30-round magazines, then the stockpile still increases by one, and decreases the error range by 1 (6-5=1, 1*.5=.5 rounded up).


Let me know what you think, and please help tweak, please.

[MilitiaJim]

Using a drum instead of magazines does not make most rifles more prone to jams and whatnot.  (Special case for feeding an M-249 from magazines, which is about as convenient as inflicting medicine on a rabbit.)

[Catodon]

borrowing from Diaspora you could that anyone can spend an AD to declare one weapon runs out of ammo. under this rule no one would track ammo

[foproy]

Using a drum instead of magazines does not make most rifles more prone to jams and whatnot.  (Special case for feeding an M-249 from magazines, which is about as convenient as inflicting medicine on a rabbit.)

actually aren't drums and betamags prone to spring problems making them a bit more prone to failure?

[MilitiaJim]

actually aren't drums and betamags prone to spring problems making them a bit more prone to failure?

Not really, especially not when they are new and well maintained.

You could also use the above mentioned ironman rig for lighter ammo and have a Lot on hand.

[RusVal]

borrowing from Diaspora you could that anyone can spend an AD to declare one weapon runs out of ammo. under this rule no one would track ammo

But then I might as well just use the Bottomless Clip quality.  The point was that the PCs would still need to keep track of their magazines, and occasionally time their reloads during battle, while still not having to worry about tracking every round that they have on their person, like with how the new XCOM is handling ammo.

Using a drum instead of magazines does not make most rifles more prone to jams and whatnot.  (Special case for feeding an M-249 from magazines, which is about as convenient as inflicting medicine on a rabbit.)

True, but the tendency for a person to go DAKKA DAKKA DAKKA when they feel that they don't have to worry about running out, would probably put a strain on the mechanism, I'd think.  I even remember hearing somewhere that one reason that they only hand out 30-round mags to troops was that the constant reloading helped cool the barrels after extended firing (the same thinking that has the standard M16 have only burst-fire, I believe), though I don't know how true that is.
Same problem with overcharged power cells.

Another reason for that rule is pesky "game balance" reasons.
If you don't have to worry about running out of ammo, but still need to reload, what's to stop people from just taking 100-round drums?  And why would anyone take 20-round mags instead?
The most logical, to me anyways, reason would be "taking the drum increases the chance that your gun malfunctions", though if there's another way, I'd love to hear it.

[MilitiaJim]

I agree that how many rounds are left in the magazine is more important than how many magazines are left.  A few AD, spent by players or the DM, should be able to set someone down to a few magazines left.  (DM Spends an AD and says:  "Pulling another 40 round magazine for his Armalite from his vest, Jones realized the pouches were nearly empty, three magazines and the one in his hand were all he had left."  Player spends 4 AD on the alien who just rounded a corner:  "Even without a mouth, the alien's face wore a look of surprised horror as his plasma rifle belched a sad cloud of gas and blinked empty.")

M-16s originally were semi or fully automatic.  M-16A2s replaced full auto with three round burst mode, because burning a 20 round magazine is generally very ineffective.  (Of the currently manufactured versions, M-16A3s have full auto, and M-16A4s have three round burst.)  The grunts have never pushed for full auto M-16s or M-4s, and single aimed shots are much more effective than spraying a magazine worth of bullets.  (See prior discussions on the Autofire action.)

20 round magazines are still around, but more common now are 40 round magazines that are more reliable than the old 20 rounders were.  (As recently as 1999, you only put 27 rounds in a 30 round magazine to prevent misfeeding, and I never topped off my GI 30 round mags.)  Drums are available in 50 and 100 round varieties, and are considered reliable enough that the USMC is using them with their automatic rifles.  (Replacing the fire team's SAW with a heavy barrel, full auto, M-16 variant.)  As a SAW gunner I carried an extra six 30 round magazines.  Those magazines were basically for my friends, because SAWs treat magazines the way puppies treat loafers:  They chew the hell out of 'em.

[RusVal]

(As recently as 1999, you only put 27 rounds in a 30 round magazine to prevent misfeeding, and I never topped off my GI 30 round mags.)

*Shrug* And technically if you reload mid mag, you will have the amount in the new mag plus the one in the chamber, but many FPSs ignore that just to keep things simple.

But for the moment, let's say we do the "use AD to force a 'low on ammo' situation", how would one do the math?
Maybe something like:

Running Low!
-The GC can spend AD equal to the storage stockpile of a weapon to cause a Running Low! on a PC.  When under Running Low!, the number of magazines the effected PC has left is equal to 1/2 the normal stockpile size, rounded up.

Doing it like that, I can go, "Sure, use that 100-round drum.  It'll just make it easier for me to force you to run out of ammo."

Oooh, I think I like the sound of that.  

Will still need to figure out how to tweak the XP gain for this quality, though.  Maybe +0 if the Running Low! rule is a part of the quality.

[MilitiaJim]

Time to reload?  Slowing your movement?  Those 100 round drums are not small, two on a vest is really all you can carry before they start interfering with doing stuff.  You can put more in your pack, but then you have to get them out.  I am inclined to suggest keeping track of ammo, but letting players decide how much they want to bring.  (That is another perk of smaller caliber weapons:  More ammo for the same weight.)

Could go either way.

[RusVal]

Those 100 round drums are not small, two on a vest is really all you can carry before they start interfering with doing stuff.  You can put more in your pack, but then you have to get them out.

Not as much of a problem when the "drum" is a 30-round mag with a Folded Space Ammunition Storage Mechanism (FSASM).

[MilitiaJim]

Those 100 round drums are not small, two on a vest is really all you can carry before they start interfering with doing stuff.  You can put more in your pack, but then you have to get them out.

Not as much of a problem when the "drum" is a 30-round mag with a Folded Space Ammunition Storage Mechanism (FSASM).

Well, if you're rolling like that, then there is seldom much reason to fire single shots.  Space fold your recoil system too, and watch recoil drop to nil.  .50BMG carbines here we come!

[RusVal]

Space fold your recoil system too, and watch recoil drop to nil.  .50BMG carbines here we come!

Sure, if you don't mind a gun that tends to double feed and/or "lags" a shot.  Not to mention that the amount of E-115 needed to run a fold system like that is better used for propulsion of the projectile.

[MilitiaJim]

.50BMG chain gun, with the space fold recoil buffer between the receiver and the buttstock.  Use a belt feeder so the rifle is pulling the rounds out of the folded space magazine.  Hmm.     (Maybe add a KRISS Vector type action to take care of some muzzle rise?)

How much Elerium is needed for the space folding?

[Sletchman]

You see RusVal, this is why I don't tell my players how some things work.

Space fold your recoil system too, and watch recoil drop to nil.  .50BMG carbines here we come!

Sure, if you don't mind a gun that tends to double feed and/or "lags" a shot.  Not to mention that the amount of E-115 needed to run a fold system like that is better used for propulsion of the projectile.

Why do they use it for mags if this is the case?  Surely something like the Ironman backpack, or even regular drums / beta mags work fine for most firefights (and since it's on earth, supply lines are close to impossible to fully cut off - given the existence of gun shops and the like in many countries).  Given the rarity (I assumed, based on the last sentence) it just strikes me a waste to space fold the mags at all (especially compared to other (bulkier) items).