Bushwhack Basics

[leo]

I'm not sure if I'm being a tad thick, but I don't quite understand the bushwhack basics feat.
The wording is "When you have a 2-to-1 or better advantage, your Ambush effects last 3 rounds (beyond the surprise round)."
What is the ambush effect to which it refers? Does it:
a) Grant you get 3 full surprise rounds before the enemy can react, which is a tad terrfying
or
b) Extend the possible dice of sneak attack damage that rolling a crit on your ambush roll allows to 3 rounds, which is rather limp as far as feats go

[Desertpuma]

Actually the way I read it after reading page 83 (Tactics Skill which deals with Ambush), you get both since the Sneak Attack damage is a critical success of the Ambush.

So if you have a 2-to-1 advantage on your opponent and commit to a 1 minute Ambush, with Bushwhack Basics as a feat you have, if successful, it will last 3 rounds (including the Sneak Attack if a crit success).

So the trick is to get the 2-to-1 advantage and then succeed at the 1 minute Ambush. The effects of your Ambush last for 3 rounds (including any Sneak Attack damage). Yeah, it can be terrifying. ... Here's the interesting part: tack on Ambush Basics (allowing the 1-minute to be done in 2 rounds) and see where things go!

[leo]

Throw in misdirection basics and you've got yourself something terrifying.

[Desertpuma]

Exactly ... tack on Horde Basics for even more fun!

[Lothmar]

~hums circus music~  Sorry running gag in my group for ever growing snowball scenario's. ~chuckle~

[Agent 333]

Be careful of opponents that are always ready, they can ruin a good ambush right well.

[Desertpuma]

Very true... being immune to the surprise would kill the momentum of what we've discussed ... it's a rude awakening to set the whole thing for 6-8 standard NPCs only to find out that the GM has given them Always Ready.

[Gentry]

I'm not so sure that you get 4 surprise rounds from a successful use of Bushwhack Basics (3 rounds in addition to the normal surprise round). That feels a little hefty for a first-tier feat. 4 unanswerable actions from everyone in your 2-to-1 band? For a party of four, that's 16 actions pouring into a combat before Init even gets rolled. At first blush, that sounds totally awesome. Let's ambush everybody. But what happens in the much more common instance where an Ambush gets run against your players? 8 goblins ambushing your four-man party means 32 actions click off into the group before Init rolls get made. That feels out of control (and rest assured, the tone at your table will turn dark as night if you tell your four players they have to sit through 32 arrow attacks before they get to do anything).

And what happens if your four-man group dusts off all the mooks to face the boss, and the party Assassin engages his free ambush check ability? Do you interrupt combat with 4 consecutive surprise rounds where they get to tee off on the boss without fear of retaliation, and then re-roll init?

Don't get me wrong. Those things sound kinda cool, and certainly flavorfully appropriate for a proper ambush. I'm just not sure that's the design intent.

Maybe you could simply "start" the fight three additional times (1. surprise round, 2. regular round, 3. Bushwhack surprise round, 4. regular round with new Init, repeat steps 3 and 4 twice more) but that would be a bookkeeping and tactical nightmare for both sides.

I agree, however, that without the surprise round additions the feat doesn't do anything unless you score a critical on your Ambush check. And making an entire feat's effects dependent on producing a critical success on a skill check, under very specific circumstances, feels a little underpowered.

Maybe the language is there as future-proofing. That way new Ambush effects can get introduced (a la Battlefield Trickery) and there's already a feat that makes them extra-awesome.

[Big_Jim]

Upon reading the ambush related feats (Ambush B/M/S, Battlefield Trickery, Bushwhack B/M/S), the Tactics: Ambush check, and the Surprise Round step from the Order of Combat... it appears that Bushwhack Basics does nothing currently without a crit on the Tactics: Ambush check. Then it extends the free die of sneak attack damage to the first three 'real' combat rounds. Nothing else. So it's an incredibly weak feat with future-proofing for new additional effects to be extended, but currently only one... on a crit.

[Gentry]

And it's worth noting that you could stack it up with the Ambush feats and some Skill Mastery and be rolling an ambush threat on a 12 or something. But that's cold comfort, and a comparatively weak way to build a sneak attacker, methinks.

[Big_Jim]

Here's something that I was working on that seems appropriate. The Basics feat needs work I think.

COVERT FEATS (or maybe Terrain?)

SKIRMISHING BASICS (may still need work... I think it needs a 'conditional' ability and an 'always on' ability.)
You are a master of using terrain to ambush and hide your numbers.
Benefit: You gain 1 die of sneak attack and 1/2 personal cover against all opponents during a surprise round due to a successful ambush.

SKIRMISHING MASTERY
For a skirmisher, movement is life.
Prerequisites: Skirmishing basics
Benefit: You may move up to your speed before performing an attack action during a surprise round due to a successful ambush.

SKIRMISHING SUPREMACY (This one might be too awesome)
Your quick movements are second to your quick mind for confounding your foes.
Prerequisites: Skirmishing mastery
Benefit: You require only a full action to make a Tactics/Outmaneuver check on an opponent in close quarters.

[Gentry]

Yeah, that first Basics benefit is funky. It's like a pint-sized version of always ready that gets crazy stacked with Bushwhack.  What if you dropped the numerical advantage bit for a die of sneak attack damage in a surprise round all the time? That way if you got the critical ambush check you'd actually do two dice of sneak in the surprise round.

Maybe you could word Mastery "You may move up to your speed before performing an attack action during a surprise round." That eliminates the need for the second sentence, and keeps you from getting crazy with stuff that might key off a Move Action specifically.

[Big_Jim]

Hmmm... Let me edit. The Mastery rewrite is just right.

[Gentry]

Oddly, Supremacy might not be awesome enough. How about "Once per scene, you may make an Outmaneuver check as a free action"? Outmaneuver's not *that* good.

[Big_Jim]

Ok... moving my skirmishing chain to License to Improvise. This isn't the place for it.

http://www.crafty-games.com/forum/index.php?topic=6036.0