Buying Class Abilities???

[Bhurano]

Hi there,

one of the players in my group came up with a request. He asked if class abilities could obtain the Slanderous ability for his Lancer/Beastmaster, with which he won't be able to pick up 6 levels of courtier. I didn't wanted to shoot him down outright and tried to come up with a solution.

I took a look at the npc class abilities list and - for now - I might allow him to buy Slanderous for at least 50 Reputation. He also needs at least to be level 6 to pick that - the first time a courtier gains his power play options.

Since we already tried to crash FC in different ways - which didn't work - I am inclined to allow it.

As everytime, any opinion is appreciated.

EDIT: Some ways we tried to crash FC

1. Making Feats buyable -> the characters get some more abilities, mostly things the players like to have, but wouldn't or couldn't obtain otherwise.
2. Handing out Reputation like candy -> funny thing you can have hundreds or thousands of reputation, but only if your GM allows you to pick everything without justification it's landing in what-the-heck-areas.
3. Having 3 or 8 different classes up to level 20 -> That was the funniest part to do. We began with 3 different classes up to level 20 and some weeks ago - when the rest of the group had no time - we decided to give a pure powergaming monster with 8 different classes up to level 20 a shot. > That beast could do many things - no problem on that side - but in the end he got shanked by some normal bandits (just pregen NPCs) and in his own garden to boot. His end was rather unceremonious. So you can have essentially god-like skills but against a bit of luck or its absence, good tactics and outnumbered anyone can go down.

As you can see we tried seriously to crash FC - and it still came out of top.

[Bill Whitmore]

Well, he is basically adding a level worth of Class abilities.  If you were to do that with a magic item it would cost 25 reputation + take a prize slot.  A prize slot costs 30 reputation (to raise the renown).  So I would probably use those figures when deciding this, which would be 55 reputation.

Since you are not gaining the other benefits of raising the renown, like favor accessibility, 50 reputation points is probably about right.

[Krensky]

Actually, I'd probably price the base magic item ability at more then 25, since it's significantly better benefit then the Class Enhancement Essence.

Class Ability (which at best is a fourth level ability) is 20 Rep. I'd probably call a sixth level ability 30 Rep.

So they need 30 Rep and a free prize slot for this boon. IF they don't have a free slot, they need to get one then spend the 30 Rep.

[Bill Whitmore]

True, but Class Enhancement is 25 and could net you a 14th level game breaker.  If I was to fully codify this, I would be less concerned about when the ability is gained and more concerned about the power level of the ability.  To start, I would use the class ability template and assign costs to A-level abilities, B-level abilities, etc.

Whether it actually takes a prize slot or just costs more but doesn't take a slot doesn't make a whole lot of difference.

In any event, the 3 costs we have come up with are 50 (Bhurano), 55 (mine) and 60 (Krensky).  The range is actually pretty tight and any one of them should work.

[LordKruelos]

True, but Class Enhancement is 25 and could net you a 14th level game breaker.  If I was to fully codify this, I would be less concerned about when the ability is gained and more concerned about the power level of the ability.  To start, I would use the class ability template and assign costs to A-level abilities, B-level abilities, etc.

Whether it actually takes a prize slot or just costs more but doesn't take a slot doesn't make a whole lot of difference.

In any event, the 3 costs we have come up with are 50 (Bhurano), 55 (mine) and 60 (Krensky).  The range is actually pretty tight and any one of them should work.

What if it were a base 30 + 2x the class level of the ability? That gives it a pretty easy feel that seems like reasonable progression?

[Sletchman]

How about: 15 + 5*[Grade] Rep?

Grade: A=1 / B=2 / C=3 ...

For a 1st level ability, this kicks out at 20 Rep.  For a 6th level (E) ability it comes out at 40 Rep (5*5 + 15 = 40).  It might seem high, but 6th level has some potent abilities and I like to err on the side of caution.  Still requires a free prize slot, so costs would increase if you make it a non-prize.

[Mister Andersen]

This would be a perfect thing to see in Spellbound, wouldn't it?

[Sletchman]

This would be a perfect thing to see in Spellbound, wouldn't it?

I think the gear book would be far more likely from what Pat and Alex have said.  Unless it's a temporary thing via a spell (which would make it easy to turn into a magic item / permanency onto yourself).

[The_Grand_User]

Could you elaborate on the "Having 3 or 8 different classes up to level 20" I doubt you mean a level 60 or 160 character; something closer to the gestalt rules from 3.5? Did it effect the numbers or just class abilities? It sounds like fun for a short and crazy game with a small group.

[Coyote0273]

This would be a perfect thing to see in Spellbound, wouldn't it?

I think the gear book would be far more likely from what Pat and Alex have said.  Unless it's a temporary thing via a spell (which would make it easy to turn into a magic item / permanency onto yourself).

No gear at all in Spellbound. Not even magic items according to the Crafty guys.

[Sletchman]

This would be a perfect thing to see in Spellbound, wouldn't it?

I think the gear book would be far more likely from what Pat and Alex have said.  Unless it's a temporary thing via a spell (which would make it easy to turn into a magic item / permanency onto yourself).

No gear at all in Spellbound. Not even magic items according to the Crafty guys.

Yeah, that's what I meant in the first sentence - it'll be in the gear book (if anywhere) because of what the Crafty guys said.  By the rest I just meant that if there's a spell (in Spellbound) that grants a class ability that we already have the rules to make a magic item out of it (in the core book) and if it's an Enduring spell then it can be made permanent (via Permanency).

[Bhurano]

Thanks for the help,

seems I failed the mark not that far. Yeah. But since there are possibly gamebreaker among the things someone might choose I am inclined to use Sletchmans progression, (15 + Grade x 5 Reputation) with the little added extra that anything that comes out under 50 Reputation cost at least 50 Reputation. Since that takes quite a chunk out of possible reputation rewards I will just call it a day and treat it like a non-prize. That should be fine for anybody in the group.

So thanks again for the help.

@The_Grand_User

I don't know about gestalt rules from D&D 3.5... but it sounds like you have the right direction in mind. You are absolutely correct that we didn't go up to level 60 or 160.
We figured that staying in the level range of 20 wouldn't break anything and decided to pick for a first try up to 3 different classes. These classes were tracked seperately, including expert and master classes - if any.

After that you looked up which saves, vitality and skill points you would apply. Depending upon the choices made you could end up with a character which had 8 skillpoints/level, 12 Vitality per Level and all the best saves. Not to mention the lifestyle and legend.

An important part - for that experiment - was to define that skill points and vitality gained depended upon the best class in the mix. The skills sets on the other hand were just plain and easy all of the classes. It sounds a bit wacky... but is quite funny... even if the creation of an character will be a bit longer... and some combinations are just crazy awesome. Just slap together a Keeper/Emissary/Mage and you will see what I mean. The INT tends to explode, not to mention that such a character is pure dynamite in social, knowledge and magical challenges. And that's just 3 classes in one package... the one round character with 8 classes was just mind-boggingly crazy ... and still got killed by some thugs.

If you want to go the extra mile hand out reputation for the character generation (around 500 seems right ), start at least at level 5 and allow them to buy for 50 or even 25 Reputation additional feats... and somehow some still ended up with characters who had not even one combat feat . It were basically free for all rounds where I wouldn't shoot anything down... not that I do that much often. The banhammer is reserved exclusively for blatant powermongering.

Give it a try... it's damn funny for a short game or a one shot.

[The_Grand_User]

Yeah, that's pretty much exactly how the 3.5 gestalt rules worked. Might give it a try sometime, since it doesn't sound like it breaks the game too bad.

[Krensky]

Note that my price was for a sixth level ability, per the OP.

Also, class enhancment, even though it potentially allows a gamebreaker, is nowhere near as powerful because it only gives you a gamebreaker one level early.