Species feat creation observations

[Blankbeard]

**** The upload folder is full.  PM me and I'll figure out how to get you the spreadsheet if you want it.
***Edit 1/20 to try some new values.  Spreadsheet is updated at the link in my second post.
***Edit 1/22  a few new values, spreadsheet updated.  I think this is as good as it's likely to get, absent a few tweaks.

Here is the associated spreadsheet.

I finally decided to include the adventure companion feats in my species feat spreadsheet which I've attached here.  I don't have any plans to update it again as doing so is a pain.  I've only included the species feats that create a sub-species.  Feats like Guts, Make Me a Stone, and Abide in Darkness don't share enough with other feats to be useful in pricing the ones I did include.  

The spreadsheet works like my origin one.  The blue area contains the options with their prices.  Since I added the AC feats it's no longer in even rough alphabetical order.  Also a few aren't used as they are left over from FC 1rst printing.  If you change any of the prices here, the feats will update.  The tier II feats (I.E. Those that require a level one only feat) have a number in the yellow bar with their name.  This is the total of both feats together.  So if you change an option used by Owl Nation, Owl Nation updates and the revised sum appears in Owl Noble.  Forgive any typos, horrid misspellings, and my not so clear way of summarizing the options themselves.  The spreadsheet is in Excel 2000 format saved by Libreoffice 3.1.

The list is below.  The numbers on the list do not correspond to any species feat creation guides that may have been used to create them. More than the origins, consider this jury rigged rather than reverse engineered.  It works well enough for me to call it "done" until there's something better around.

My tips follow:

Blankbeard's unofficial probably wrong guide to creating species feats:

Most of the multiple part feats (Elemental Legacy, Custom Construction, Living Weapon) do not work very well with these numbers.  New Leaf and Special Construction though both work fairly well with them.  YMMV.

Level one only feats (Tier I) should be 2.5 points. 25 of 63 tier I feats I priced are 2.5 points with these numbers while most of the rest fall between 2 and 3.  Theme is more important than the exact total.  Feats that make a race better at something it does well should probably be held to a tighter standard than a feat that takes the subspecies in a new direction. Species feat two part chains usually sum to between 5 and 6. 24 out of 32 chains do so.

If you are making a single feat, try to use 2.5 points unless more is needed for your concept.  A 4 point feat is probably too good.  I'd advise 2.5-3 with 3.5 only if needed.

Two feat chains should total 5-7 points.  Try to put 2-3 points in the opening feat.  The second feat in the chain can be heavier if needed, up to around 4 points.  Many existing feats use a drawback on the first feat to give it some extra design room and then sell it back in the second feat to keep the chain from being overpowered.  

Most origin options can be used at the costs listed in the wiki.  Exceptions include ability score modifiers, sizes, types, and of course feats.  

Removing an option from a species costs as much as the option did originally.  So losing Burden of the Ages costs 2 points while losing Sterner Stuff costs -0.5 points.  Restricted actions is an exception.  Losing one check from restricted actions costs 1 point. No existing feat removes more than one check.

Legacy abilities may be selected more than one time.

The following options can be added to a species feat at no cost:

   Lower any single attribute by 2 to gain an additional level one only feat.
   Change an existing achilles heel from one damage type to another.
   Embrace your Legacy:  I priced this at zero.  The benefit itself seems to have 2.5 points of benefits and 1.5 points of drawbacks.  Tread carefully.

Ability score modifications

-2 Specific	-1
-1 specific	-0.5
+1 to specific	1
+1 to higher of 2	1
+2 to lower of 2	1
+2/-2 specific	1.5
+2,-1 Specific	2
+2 Specific	2.5

Types and Sizes

Fey, Outsider	0
Horror	3

0.5 point options
+5 with a particular check
+2 Initiative   
when you spend an action die to boost damage, you may convert the damage to a specific type
Gear you ready gains a specific upgrade while you use it
Lose restricted kick tricks   
No error increase when flying
skill focus
Superior Runner I
Superior Swimmer I
Superior Traveler I

1 point options
+10 DC for one type of check targeting you   
+1 attack vs larger opponents   
+2 attack when in low light conditions   
+2 Save vs one or two closely related sources   
Aquatic I
Your attacks of one type gain Bleed   
Your size increases by one step but you use the same size weapons   
Chameleon I in one terrain as a one minute action
count as 3 characters for numerical advantage   
Only flanked by 3 or more adjacent characters   
limited free action - When X happens, you may perform Y as a free action once per round    
Reach 2 for certain checks
Lose a restricted check   
+2 on checks using a specific skill   
You gain 4 ranks in a specific skill subject to your maximum   
Sneak attack 1d6   
Speed +5 ft   
Wounds as 1 size larger
Resistance 5 to a particular damage type
Upgrade a resistance from 5 to 10   
   
1.5 point options
 +1 with attacks and skill checks during Dramatic Scenes
Adjacent opponents must save (DC 15 reflex) or be entangled
Renown Discount- you may purchase one specific type of renown for 20 per rank
Your size drops one category, minimum Small
+4 on checks with a specific skill

Speed +10 ft
Spell Defense options for amount include your skill ranks in a specific skill +5, your total skill bonus, or a similar amount

2 point options
Beguiling
Convert Breath damage to a particular energy type
DR2 except to one damage type
Free disarm after taking 10 points of melee damage in a single attack
Never Flanked
Prudence +1
Reach +1
Regeneration 1 in water
Resistance 10 to a particular damage type
Your size increases one step to a maximum of Large.  If already large you gain Reach +1

2.5 point options
DR2
Regeneration 1
Spell Defense 20
Swim 60   

3.5 point options
DR 4
Stone Gaze   

4 point options
Flight 60 (wingless)
   
4.5 point options
Regeneration II   
Gaze 2d6   

-0.5 point drawbacks
-2 with Specific ability checks
no kick attacks
You are considered one size smaller for Bullrushes, Grapples, and Tripping
-2 on a either Reflex, Will, or Fortitude saves
Speed -5 ft

1 point drawbacks
Your close quarters combat range is 15'
Speed -10 ft

[Sletchman]

Excellent work Blankbeard.  The only thing that I somewhat disagree with is the cost of Regeneration I when fully submerged.  For such a significant restriction (always on vs rarely on in a "standard" game) it seems like it should be more then -0.5 pts.

If you feel inclined, I'd appreciate you emailing me the spreadsheet - my email is under the author thingie to the left.

[Blankbeard]

It's showing your email address as hidden unless there's another way to see it I don't know about.  I remember there were problems with google docs before so I've put it up on dropbox.   Try this link and let me know if there are problems.

Here is the dropbox link.

As for the price, I did a bit of sanity checking but not much.  Many of the values could be changed and still have "reasonable" totals.  Water based regen could be 1.5 without messing anything else up. 

There is at least one bit of weirdness that I wouldn't keep:  Panache and Appearance both cost 1 point but Prudence seems to be 2 points.   I see no reason for that and doubt it's intentional.

[Sletchman]

I have no idea why it's shown as hidden, but the dropbox link works perfectly.  Just another quick observation - I think [Damage] Resistance 5 is worth more then 0.5pts (highly subjective because of damage types, some being worth far more then others) and that DR2/X is worth more then 1 pt - Scott argued with me previously that any DR is worth more then a larger quantity of Thick Hide (he claimed DR2 is worth far more then Thick Hide 3), but take that how you will.  My guess for DR2/X is 2pts.  Shouldn't throw off any of the totals if you do feel like changing it though - the ones with those qualities come in way under 2.5pts (most around 1pt / 1.5pts).  No suggestions for [Damage] Resistance, but at least 1pt would be my guess.

And yeah, it's bizarre that Panache isn't equal to Prudence.  However, I can see Appearance being worth a different value - boosting it directly doesn't boost overall lifestyle, or grant extra saving % or income.

Excellent work, once again - you saved me a whole lot of effort here.

[Blankbeard]

You know, I've looked at that spreadsheet for hours and your changes never occurred to me.  You corrected quite a few problem feats.  Updated the dropbox (It should update whenever I make changes)

+1 Specific is now 1
DR2/X is 2
DR2 is 2.5
DR4 is 3.5 and not used in second printing (I think)
Damage Resistance 5 is 1.5
Damage Resistance 10 is 2.5

Angelic and Devilish chains are slightly over priced in the spreadsheet.  They had a 5-10 increase that I didn't give its own option. 

SOmeone look at Fire Brave/Elder.  That chain seems very overpriced.  Fire Elder is a whole heap of benefits but still....

[Sletchman]

Fire Brave / Elder looks right (breakdown wise), but then again I've always thought they were really damn potent feats.

For the Angelic / Devilish chains, I'd consider Outsider a 0pt thing - it doesn't have any real bonuses and just opens you up to more effects being able to target you.  I also think the first resistance being bumped up to 10 shouldn't be another 1.5pts, just the 1pt gap (between 1.5 for 5 and 2.5 for 10).  That cuts them down to 8 for Heritage and Legacy, and 3.5 / 4.5 pts - still very high, but a little better.

[Blankbeard]

A few more tweaks:

Damage Resistance 5 is now 1 pt
Damage Resistance 10 is now 2 pt
There is a new 5-10 upgrade located in cells o20-p20  priced at 1
Fey and Outsider types are now 0

The only feats that bother me now are the River Clutch/Crest chain and the Dragon-Tailed, Dwarf-Blooded, and Ghost Eye Folk feats.  Most everything else seems to be within an acceptable range.

Spreadsheet is updated and the first post will be.  This is usable and I'm not seeing much reason to pronounce it "done."

[Blankbeard]

It's been a couple weeks with no movement on this so I've added it to the wiki under the origin creation guidelines.

http://www.crafty-games.com/content/blankbeards-unofficial-guide-creating-species-feats

[Sletchman]

Didn't see your update (for some reason the "unread topics" button just doesn't work correctly for me, NFI why) but it all looks good.  Good resource to have on the wiki (and yeah a few don't shake out right, but I'd always suspected the ones that didn't confirm were "a bit too good").

One question though - did you intend for it to all have a grey highlight (like a backlit bar thing)?  Should be an easy fix, but I don't like changing other peoples work (especially without knowing their intent).

[Blankbeard]

No, I didn't intend that.  I copied and pasted from this thread so it must have been picked up then.  If you know how to get rid of it, feel free.

And any other changes anyone feels are needed, please feel free to make them.

[snake]

Excellent stuff with the Species Feat guide, Blankbeard.  

I couldn't resist giving it a try with a Species Feat I'm working on.

In my PA Fantasy game, Rootwalkers are Mutant Trees and I was looking at a way of modifying the basic Rootwalker to cover Mutant Plants, Bushes, Fungi as sub-species.

One particular sub-species would be a humanoid plant, bit like a Dryads human form or the Gren race from Gamma World. These "PlantFolk" have green skin, leaf like hair and use primative weapons. They've a bit like savage wood-elves.   

Plantfolk

The Elinoi people of the trees are smaller than their Rootwalker cousins but what they lack in size, they make up for in grace and stealth.

Prerequistes: Rootwalker Level 1 only.

Benefit:

Your size changes to Medium [1.5]
You lose the Lumbering quality [1]
You gain Natural Elegance [1] and Enlightened Skill (Sneak) [1]
You lose Thick Skin 2 [-1]
You gain the Aloof drawback [-0.5]

[Sletchman]

Your size changes to Medium [1.5]

With Large costing 1pt and Medium costing 0pts, shouldn't this be -1?  Should give you a little more wiggle room to pull of what you're trying to accomplish.  Cool concept btw - I went the other way (base race were medium plants with a species feat to become large sized rootwalkers) but this way makes for a lot less work.

[snake]

Well, this is where I'm unsure. 

Going from the first part of the guide to creating species feats, it says "removing an option costs as much as the option did originally." So the size change should cost -1 points.

But further on in the guide, it says "1.5 point options. Your size drops one category, minimum small".

So not sure which is right ?

Glad you like the concept, thanks. 

[SilvercatMoonpaw]

But further on in the guide, it says "1.5 point options. Your size drops one category, minimum small".

I think that assumes you are starting with Medium.

[Blankbeard]

The more expensive size qualities are found in feats that can be applied to multiple species, the -blood feats.  Since your feat is only applies to a single species (or if it applied to a known set, like the Horde feats can apply to goblins and orcs) I'd use the cheaper sell option as Sletchman says.  There aren't any examples that I can think of so my opinion only.