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Author Topic: Various Pathfinder and Arcana Evolved inspired stuff  (Read 1628 times)
Blankbeard
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« Reply #15 on: February 16, 2012, 04:06:48 PM »

I kind of mutated the grapple rules slightly.  There's more that depends on some other ideas I had but this is the base.


Brawl
1 Full Action: Unarmed Attack Action
The character tries to brawl an adjacent opponent.  They make an opposed Athletics check.  If the initiating character wins, he inflicts his unarmed damage and the two characters are engaged otherwise he is sprawled and the brawl ends.  All characters within 30' of a brawl also enter the brawl with the disengaged status.  In effect, a brawl is like several grapples going on at once with some extra options.

Each character in a brawl is in one of four states:  Disengaged, engaged, held, or pinned.  Each round, every character in a brawl makes an opposed athletics check against any adjacent non-ally characters.  Engaged allies fighting the same character (or team) may make a single check, with a +2 bonus for each ally after the first engaged.  The winner may shift his own or any adjacent character's status one step in either direction or he may apply a brawl benefit. If multiple characters make a single check, any status change or brawl benefit affects them all. 

Disengaged characters need only make checks if they are targeted by another character in the brawl.  They may take any action they could outside of a brawl.  If a disengaged character moves more than 30 foot from any brawling character, they lose the disengaged status and exit the brawl.

Example:  Dastardly Dan, Evil Ed and Heroic Hank are in a brawl.  Oblivious Otto is ajacent to them.  Dan, Ed, and Hank all have the engaged status.  Dan would like to use Otto as a shield so he targets Otto. Ed is Dan's ally and opts to assist him.  Hank does not wish to harm Otto so he targets Dan.  Dan, Hank and Otto all make checks, with Dan receiving +2 for Ed's help.  If Dan wins the check, Otto becomes engaged and Dan can try to use him against Hank.  If Otto wins, he remains disengaged while if Hank is the winner, Otto not only stays disengaged, Dan and Ed will both face whatever benefit Hank chooses.

The brawl benefits available depend on the status of the target.
Engaged, Held, or Pinned Status
Injure: You may inflict your unarmed damage or the damage of a held 1 handed weapon.
Move: You and any adjacent engaged characters move 10 foot in a direction of your choice.

Held Status
Any valid grapple benefit

Pinned Status
Any valid grapple benefit
Bounced out:  The character becomes engaged, is thrown 10 foot, and lands sprawled.  Any characters in the landing space are sprawled unless they make a DC 15 save.  All characters in the landing space take your unarmed damage.

Optional:  Brawling areas
The GM may break up the place into linked areas.  Each area may have special qualities.  In this case, an ongoing brawl takes up an entire area.  The move benefit moves between areas in this case. 

Example:  A brawl takes place in a western saloon.  The GM breaks it up as follows
Code:
                            Stage
                                |
Pigpen----Street----Floor----Stairway----Bedrooms
                                 |
                               Bar
The GM decides that most areas are normal.  On the stage there are several dancers who could be grabbed as shields while the bar contains lots of glass.  Anyone can choose to inflict edged damage here.  Anyone pinned in the pigpen takes a -4 to Impress checks for the rest of the scene while anyone bounced out of the bedroom takes 1d6 falling damage and ends up in the street.
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Krensky
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« Reply #16 on: February 16, 2012, 05:42:42 PM »

Um... that is way more complex then using the standard combat rules, for practically no gain I can see.

What you need is an additional grapple benefit that let's use a pinned character as 3/4 cover or such.

Haggling is covered, suprisingly, by the Haggle skill, urban survival is shockingly covered by the Survival skill, knowledge of the streets is a Knowledge check, and brawling is covered by the same system you use for any attempt to do bodily harm to another, the combat system.

Skill bloat is bad.
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paddyfool
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« Reply #17 on: February 16, 2012, 05:52:51 PM »

I'm... on Krensky's side, here.  The system doesn't need to be any more complicated than it is.  Although you have given me an idea: wandering around and getting into bar brawls could be a fun option for a downtime action to generate rep (by demonstrating your unarmed combat mastery or general badassery).  Probably most suitable for an athletics skill check (grappling) or a resolve skill check (tiring).
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Krensky
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« Reply #18 on: February 16, 2012, 06:56:11 PM »

Depending on the PC I might go with Acrobatics or Intimidate yeah. For coin though i'd break and use unarmed combat bonus. Maybe.
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SilvercatMoonpaw
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« Reply #19 on: February 16, 2012, 07:31:14 PM »

Haggling is covered, suprisingly, by the Haggle skill
Exactly why is it you think I didn't know this?  What makes you think that when I mentioned haggling being covered under the new skill that I'd also keep it as a separate skill?

urban survival is shockingly covered by the Survival skill
It doesn't have to be

knowledge of the streets is a Knowledge check
The game already accounts for regular skills being used for knowledge checks.

Skill bloat is bad.
How is this skill bloat?  I have not increased the number of skills, merely the number of possible character actions for which there are written rules.
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Blankbeard
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« Reply #20 on: February 16, 2012, 08:54:55 PM »

Ok, not that way.  It sounded better than it reads (by an order of magnitude). 

The combat system is really good for killing people and surprisingly reasonable for knocking them out but if you've ever seen a movie with a bar brawl in it, you know that it's nothing like what the combat system can produce.   

Silvercat, what do you mean by skill challenges in this context?
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SilvercatMoonpaw
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« Reply #21 on: February 16, 2012, 09:20:52 PM »

Silvercat, what do you mean by skill challenges in this context?
I honestly did not get any farther than "use a skill".  But I assume the intent is to do something a bit more abstract than normal combat, and the way skill-based conflicts like negotiation work now is the rules' next more-abstract step I can think of.
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Mister Andersen
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« Reply #22 on: February 17, 2012, 01:10:45 AM »

I gotta say I'm with Krensky on this one.
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Krensky
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« Reply #23 on: February 17, 2012, 02:27:38 AM »

Quote from: SilvercatMoonpaw link=topic=6 :)003.msg107933#msg107933 date=1329438674
Haggling is covered, suprisingly, by the Haggle skill
Exactly why is it you think I didn't know this?  What makes you think that when I mentioned haggling being covered under the new skill that I'd also keep it as a separate skill?

Because you didn't say you were renaming Haggle and giving it more stuff to do. Although I do find your characterization of urbanites being more adept at haggling delightfully absurd. Go visit a real farmers market, the kind where farmers buy and sell amongst each other.

Quote from: SilvercatMoonpaw link=topic=6 :)003.msg107933#msg107933 date=1329438674
urban survival is shockingly covered by the Survival skill
It doesn't have to be

It does if you don't want to break Pathfinder Mastery.

knowledge of the streets is a Knowledge check
The game already accounts for regular skills being used for knowledge checks.[/quote]

The game allows a relavent skill to provide a synergy bonus, not to replace them. Skills do something. Knowledge checks determine if you know something.

Quote from: SilvercatMoonpaw link=topic=6 :)003.msg107933#msg107933 date=1329438674
Skill bloat is bad.
How is this skill bloat?  I have not increased the number of skills, merely the number of possible character actions for which there are written rules.

It's not, I mistook your intention because I couldn't see any reason to rename Haggle, and then give it stuff from Athletics, Investigate, the social skills, or Survival. Of course I see even less reason to make a new skill to do it either.

History lesson: Haggle was covered by Streetwise in SC2.0. It also did finding black markets, bribes, and gambling. Black market hunting is really covered by Investigate now. Bribes, as they should be, are modifiers to the social skills. Gambling got lost, but games of chance are random, house games are best done as a will save, and competative games are complex opposed tests of bluff and intimidate witn some prestidigitation. Leaving haggle by it's lonesome. Of course since it also represents any sort of quid pro quo, give and take negotiation (with Impress covering making them like you and Intimidate making them fear you) it should get a decent amount of use anyway in talky games.
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We can lick gravity, but sometimes the paperwork is overwhelming. - Werner von Braun
Right now you have no idea how lucky you are that I am not a sociopath. - A sign seen above my desk.
There's no upside in screwing with things you can't explain. - Captain Roy Montgomery
Krensky
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« Reply #24 on: February 17, 2012, 02:30:17 AM »

Ok, not that way.  It sounded better than it reads (by an order of magnitude). 

The combat system is really good for killing people and surprisingly reasonable for knocking them out but if you've ever seen a movie with a bar brawl in it, you know that it's nothing like what the combat system can produce.   

Considering the combat system can't really reproduce any movie combat sequence, let alone real combat sequences, why are bar brawls so special they need their own system?
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We can lick gravity, but sometimes the paperwork is overwhelming. - Werner von Braun
Right now you have no idea how lucky you are that I am not a sociopath. - A sign seen above my desk.
There's no upside in screwing with things you can't explain. - Captain Roy Montgomery
Sletchman
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« Reply #25 on: February 17, 2012, 03:48:46 AM »

History lesson: Haggle was covered by Streetwise in SC2.0. It also did finding black markets, bribes, and gambling. Black market hunting is really covered by Investigate now.

Haggle does have "where to find items (legally or illegally)" as one of it's listed knowledges.  Suggests to me the "official" way to do it is Knowledge with a Haggle synergy.  Which I'm good with - Investigate is plenty good as is.

The combat system is really good for killing people and surprisingly reasonable for knocking them out but if you've ever seen a movie with a bar brawl in it, you know that it's nothing like what the combat system can produce.   

How so?  Aren't most movie bar brawls just a big damn hero and a bunch of mooks?  So he bottles/punches/stools/poolcues them and they go unconcious.  That and some flashy description of the action (the bullrush that kills the mook actually impales him on a trophy head's horns) - which I'd encourage in any scene, not just bar brawls.  What's missing that you want to replicate?  That's an honest question - if you have any film suggestions for particular bar brawls I'll try find em on youtube or in my dvd collection.
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SilvercatMoonpaw
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« Reply #26 on: February 17, 2012, 08:12:59 AM »

The combat system is really good for killing people and surprisingly reasonable for knocking them out but if you've ever seen a movie with a bar brawl in it, you know that it's nothing like what the combat system can produce.   

How so?  Aren't most movie bar brawls just a big damn hero and a bunch of mooks?  So he bottles/punches/stools/poolcues them and they go unconcious.  That and some flashy description of the action (the bullrush that kills the mook actually impales him on a trophy head's horns) - which I'd encourage in any scene, not just bar brawls.  What's missing that you want to replicate?  That's an honest question - if you have any film suggestions for particular bar brawls I'll try find em on youtube or in my dvd collection.
My guess is it's about not having to run through all the different mechanical actions required to knock someone out in the combat system.  My thought is that a in a bar brawl rolling to see if you can pull off an athletic move, rolling to hit, and rolling how much damage you do are subsumed under simply rolling to see if you have any effect on the brawl that move.
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Blankbeard
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« Reply #27 on: February 25, 2012, 11:45:54 PM »

How so?  Aren't most movie bar brawls just a big damn hero and a bunch of mooks?  So he bottles/punches/stools/poolcues them and they go unconcious.  That and some flashy description of the action (the bullrush that kills the mook actually impales him on a trophy head's horns) - which I'd encourage in any scene, not just bar brawls.  What's missing that you want to replicate?  That's an honest question - if you have any film suggestions for particular bar brawls I'll try find em on youtube or in my dvd collection.

Specifically what I'm thinking of are TV westerns although the recent Star Trek remake came on a few nights ago and the bar scene in that had a good bit of what I want. Action movies tend to have fights in bars that are pretty much the way you describe:  Hero kills mooks in creative ways, says catchphrase, next scene.  What I'm referring to tends to be a nonlethal battle between the hero and a villain where there's a good bit of transient involvement by background objects and characters and the losers end up unconscious and/or humiliated.

I've done some work on a setting based on a weird west concept and that's what I wanted this for.  However, I think I'm going to mothball the idea and work on a minimal d20 system I've had in my head.  I need to see if I can make something coherent of it.
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Khaalis
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« Reply #28 on: February 26, 2012, 12:07:24 PM »

Am I missing something in what you are looking for?  Why not just have something like the following?

CAMPAIGN QUALITY
BRAWLING: Tavern brawls are common. Any time a combat scene is meant to be a nonlethal battle between the heroes and villains where there's a good bit of transient involvement by background objects and characters and the losers end up unconscious and/or humiliated. all lethal damage instead deals subdual damage.
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« Reply #29 on: February 26, 2012, 10:49:45 PM »

Am I missing something in what you are looking for?  Why not just have something like the following?

CAMPAIGN QUALITY
BRAWLING: Tavern brawls are common. Any time a combat scene is meant to be a nonlethal battle between the heroes and villains where there's a good bit of transient involvement by background objects and characters and the losers end up unconscious and/or humiliated. all lethal damage instead deals subdual damage.

Perhaps: Brawling: All improvised weapons do subdual damage.
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