5E?

[Desertpuma]

Yes, well, as I understand it ... some consider it the only game worth playing to which I respond in a very Cumberpatch Holmesian fashion "Oh, grow up!"

They insist on blaming the failing 4E in some large part on the altered Alignment system which is obviously idiotic as there were more systemic mechanical problems inherent as design flaws. This does not mean that other facts need to be overlooked like firing off most of the design staff who went to Paizo to do Pathfinder or cranking a book-of-the-month like some maladjusted book club that required everyone to buy it since it made previous material completely obsolete if you wanted to remain current or even the very fact that there are much better fantasy games out including 4E's precedessor or, IMNSHO, the dramatically superior FantasyCraft.

The battlecry seems to be "We need 5E to work so we can save the game from its extinction and Alignment is a cornerstone of that. ... If you are not playing with the 9 Alignment system, you are not playing the game!" ... I wish they would just wake up to the fact that it is a great dooropener to the hobby but fails mightily to be the only one worth playing.

[Sletchman]

Problem is that some people chose to straightjacket themselves when they did not have to...

Sometimes it's not the people, but their GMs.  I've lost Paladin status because I let some people free which was "breaking the law and thus my alignment", not to mention the uncountable "you character wouldn't do that" from some GMs (and not just for Paladins).  It's not even necessarily (entirely) their fault - they see that it's a required part of every character, and that it's vaguely defined as "how a character will act".

It's one of those things that needs far more clarity, rather then 3-4 lines of introduction - especially given it's integration with many other systems (magic, class/prestige class requirements, feats, races, etc.).

[Desertpuma]

No disagreement there. ... This is one of those rules that needs to be decided upon by both players and GM.

[glimmerrat]

Am I the only person in the world who realised that Bender from Futurama is Chaotic Evil?

[ComicJam]

This is one of those rules that needs to be decided upon by both players and GM.

This.

I ran the Ages of Worms campaign in Eberron. Because of the setting, evil characters weren't 'evil mwahahaahhaa!!' but drew part of their lifeforce from the negative energy plane (positive plane for good characters). That made it interesting to play as it brought in a fair amount of philosophy when one NPC changed his alignment because of his actions.

It's not saying it's the right thing to do, but agreeing before the game is kinda needed for alignments. Even D&D has a rule that's up for interpretation!

Cheers!

[Crafty_Pat]

It's one of those things that needs far more clarity, rather then 3-4 lines of introduction - especially given it's integration with many other systems (magic, class/prestige class requirements, feats, races, etc.).

This is one of those fascinating (and often frustrating) conundrums for designers. Especially in a market that's exceedingly focused on immediate accessibility, we have to carefully consider every use of page real estate and apportion the largest amounts of it to the most important topics. (Hopefully) at the head of every project you decide what the primary, secondary, and sometimes tertiary goals of a project are, and what sections are needed to support them, and in a perfect world those get the most attention, because going another way dilutes your message, and sometimes worse, leaves readers seeing a different game entirely.

Personally, I have a hard time envisioning Alignment as core to D&D, or really any fantasy game - at least not as traditionally presented. Really, how much of your experience has to do with your character's morality? In what amounts to a game of killing things, taking their stuff, and leveling up?

Thus the crux of the problem. If you include Alignment in an environment like that, you can't make it too big a deal - unless of course it is, and that's not what most players want, and we've come full circle. So it goes...

[TheTSKoala]

I've debated commenting on this thread.. only because I'm heavily biased against D&D since 3.x.  It bored me and felt like a cop out with alot of fluff.. that said.. this topic did come up at the gaming table while we were unwinding and prepping to play...

Do I think D&D 5 will replace anything in our current rotation?  I'd give it a 5% (Nat 20) chance.  They'd have to do something completely different than their last two editions to even get my attention.  Hell.. we still use a WOTC D20 Product (Star Wars).. for our futuristic.  I just don't see WOTC being able to replace our new found enjoyment for FC.  And that's not me crushing on our favorite designers.. it's just the options FC gives us for Medievil Fantasy gaming is tough to beat.  So.. COULD WoTC design something?  Sure.  Do I think they will?  No.  Not since Hasbro took over.

Core 9.  I have always hated.. loathed.. despised the Core Nine from a design stand point.  I would love something more fluid.  And something to go WITH that fluidity.  Like.. the deeper in Evil you go.. you get something nichey but cool.. but if you don't act evil all the time.. you start to go.. XYZ.  "Even Hitler painted.." as one player put it. lol

And Puma makes a great example.. D&D is the 900 lbs elephant in a room of small scottish fold kitties.  It IS what most play as their first game.. and I think 4Es entire everything.. (The book marketing.. the miniatures.. etc etc) did the hobby a great disservice. 

[Desertpuma]

Thanks Koala....

I realized when reading through just that Alignment side-discussion they had set up why I love these forums here. We step on flaming trolls quickly AND the Crafty Crew pays a visit at least once a day to answer questions and comments. I think Pat already knows I love him like a brother and, while I have yet to meet Alex in person, I'm declaring him one in absentia.

As for the big festering elephant, I'd love to see some of those diehards tryout FC to see what they think of it and how much better it is than the dying animal they cling to.

[TheTSKoala]

I realized when reading through just that Alignment side-discussion they had set up why I love these forums here. We step on flaming trolls quickly AND the Crafty Crew pays a visit at least once a day to answer questions and comments. I think Pat already knows I love him like a brother and, while I have yet to meet Alex in person, I'm declaring him one in absentia.

As for the big festering elephant, I'd love to see some of those diehards tryout FC to see what they think of it and how much better it is than the dying animal they cling to.

While I won't adopt the Crafty bunch.. I will agree that they are a very honest and thoughtful group.  Even when they get beat over the head for mistakes long past.. they're honest.. own up... and move on.  Which is a quality I very much respect.  Now.. putting my Crafty applause aside...

I think D&D's stranglehold comes from the same mentality that Magic: The Gathering's does.  Back in the 90s there were ALOT of just.. terrible.. hobby games.  Both in CCG and RPGs.. D&D was the trusted brand.. and if you looked around.. you MIGHT find a good alternative.. but odds are.. you were about to sink a good bit of change into something mediocre or worse.. and that's a hard mentality to change. 

"I could play X.. but.. I know D&D.  And I have D&D.  And I know D&D will keep making product.. so.. I'll stay with D&D."  My group is typical.  It literally took me saying.. "If you play D&D.. I won't show up until we go back to something Modern... or.. we can try FantasyCraft".. to get them to give it a shot. 

[glimmerrat]

I'll take that as a yes?

[TheTSKoala]

I'll take that as a yes?

LOL.  I was debating CN.. but I can definitely see CE...

[Bill Whitmore]

I wouldn't call Bender Evil.  Despite his words, and opportunities, he never did kill all the humans.  In fact, he went out of his way to save them when he thought no one else would.

Leela: "Oh no, the monks! We forgot to let them out of the laundry room."
Fry: "Aww, do we have to? I mean, they're monks. I'm sure their God will let them out, or at least give them more shoes to eat."
Bender: "Fat chance! You can't count on God for jack, he pretty much told me so himself!"

"When you do things right, people won't be sure you've done anything at all."

...of course there was that whole using slaves to build a giant egyptian statue thing...

[Sletchman]

I'll take that as a yes?

I was going to reply with this, but was worried it might offend you.  If you google "Futurama alignment charts" all the pics that I bothered to check had Bender as their Chaotic Evil example.  I think this one comes fairly close to being accurate (while satisifying the "on character for each alignment" rule): Here.

[Number Three]

I sure I have a much kinder opinion of 4E than most of the people in this thread.  IMO, if you've never played a roleplaying game, it's a good introduction to the hobby.  This also means it's a good version of D&D... if you've never played D&D.  The initial role out was fumbled, but the 4E Red Box is genius, and I've seen more than a handful of adults come in, having missed 3.x entirely, buy it, and try playing with their kids, and some of them have become regular customers.

Most of my fear is that if they've quit this quickly and publicly on 4E, it is well within the realm of possibility that the Hasbro Overlords might just fire the entire role playing division and right it off their taxes.  As a retailer, I've seen Hasbro buy two companies (Wrebbit, maker of 3D puzzles, and the legendary Avalon Hill), come to the conclusion that they don't know what to do with them, and just liquidate the assets and sock the intellectual properties in their bottom desk draw for a rainy day.  Avalon Hill was bought with the intention of scrapping them.  To a corporate monolith like Hasbro, D&D is just another name they can pawn off on Hollywood to make a movie out of.

[Desertpuma]

Always knew that about Hasbro's bottom line and Wanters Of The Cash....