5E?

[ludomastro]

The article on magic is very interesting.

While I wish WOTC the best with 5E, I doubt that I'll be looking into D&D anytime soon.  I no longer have a need for TO-THE-MAX combat.  IF 5E does something to tame the combat issue, I might take a closer look.

[SilvercatMoonpaw]

While I'm probably not going to go back to D&D no matter what they do I'm always ready to peruse free flavor information for new ideas.  I'm probably the person in the RPG community who likes new game editions the most, and that's because I like new stuff (particularly if it's not going to affect me ).

Can't say those articles really thrill me, though. The power-source choices for magic feel poorly-though-out, skewed toward metaphysical concepts till I'm wondering why the hell they'd bother with the material world.

[MilitiaJim]

Then I have bad news: that poor horse was one of a herd, and that comparison's not going away in hurry regardless of what you or I might wish.

The comparison won't go away because it is a valid criticism.  The focus on combat, and the need to balance that, restricts the platform. 

... The power-source choices for magic feel poorly-though-out, skewed toward metaphysical concepts till I'm wondering why the hell they'd bother with the material world.

I'm still going through the other articles, but there is no way to have god powered preachers and avoid metaphysics.  D&D assumes gods, so they are going to be there.

[SilvercatMoonpaw]

... The power-source choices for magic feel poorly-though-out, skewed toward metaphysical concepts till I'm wondering why the hell they'd bother with the material world.

I'm still going through the other articles, but there is no way to have god powered preachers and avoid metaphysics.  D&D assumes gods, so they are going to be there.

By "metaphysics" I was including Shadow, Arcane, and Psionic as well as Divine.  Essentially anything that seems tied to a concept born out of human imagination rather than derived the material world.

[MilitiaJim]

By "metaphysics" I was including Shadow, Arcane, and Psionic as well as Divine.  Essentially anything that seems tied to a concept born out of human imagination rather than derived the material world.

I thought he was breaking things down by in game archtype?  The divisions are not smooth, I don't fully get it after one read.  But I do like the breakup and balance he is seeking.  YMMV.

[SilvercatMoonpaw]

By "metaphysics" I was including Shadow, Arcane, and Psionic as well as Divine.  Essentially anything that seems tied to a concept born out of human imagination rather than derived the material world.

I thought he was breaking things down by in game archtype?  The divisions are not smooth, I don't fully get it after one read.  But I do like the breakup and balance he is seeking.  YMMV.

I'm only concerned about style, feel, flavor.  And I've gotten tired of metaphysical magic.  So that breakdown is at least 4/6th boring to me.  If that was a breakdown of current 4E magic then while I still feel like it wasn't well-though-out at least it's not the blogger's fault.

[Sletchman]

Then I have bad news: that poor horse was one of a herd, and that comparison's not going away in hurry regardless of what you or I might wish.

The comparison won't go away because it is a valid criticism.  The focus on combat, and the need to balance that, restricts the platform.

Plus the way in which it's balanced - turning character rolls into "Tank", "DPSer", "Crowd Controller" and other such nonsense makes it feel so obviously derived (especially when they are really only combat roles).  This is one way I think Fantasy Craft has really excelled - the breakdown of roles is far better then I've seen just about anywhere else, while still being intuitive and flexible.  Plus no "Role: Healer" - because lets be honest, playing Healbot 1.5 in D&D sucks about as hard as it does in WoW.

By "metaphysics" I was including Shadow, Arcane, and Psionic as well as Divine.  Essentially anything that seems tied to a concept born out of human imagination rather than derived the material world.

It's Magic (or an analogue thereof), so how would it not be tied to a concept born out of human imagination?  I'm not trying to have a go, I'm curious what you would like to see (rather then what you don't)?  Are you against a breakdown entirely, or just his methodology?

[SilvercatMoonpaw]

By "metaphysics" I was including Shadow, Arcane, and Psionic as well as Divine.  Essentially anything that seems tied to a concept born out of human imagination rather than derived the material world.

It's Magic (or an analogue thereof), so how would it not be tied to a concept born out of human imagination?  I'm not trying to have a go, I'm curious what you would like to see (rather then what you don't)?  Are you against a breakdown entirely, or just his methodology?

I'm not exactly "against" it so much as "jadedly bored".

"Tied to a concept born out of human imagination" is a vague statement on my part, I'll admit that, but I tend to think of it as anything that doesn't have some real-world material analogue.  Shadow is just the absence of light energy, Psionics comes from a belief in a "mind" separate from the physical brain, Divine was created ultimately from humans trying to give sapient agency to the world around them.  Arcane I mostly don't like because it seems too undefined and therefore it seems more in line with metaphysical than physical.

What I would like to see is magic that is based off stuff that happens in the real world physically.  I don't mean magic based on the laws of physics but rather needed physical matter or energy: chemistry, electromagnetics, biological processes, moving objects, sound vibrations, etc.

And note: by "I would like to see" I mean in general for all types of RPG magic, not 5E D&D specifically.

[MilitiaJim]

Plus no "Role: Healer" - because lets be honest, playing Healbot 1.5 in D&D sucks about as hard as it does in WoW.

One upside to SWTOR is that you heal your friends by shooting or exploding them, and, if you must, calling in healing droids. 

[ludomastro]

One upside to SWTOR is that you heal your friends by shooting or exploding them, and, if you must, calling in healing droids. 

Not being familiar with the game, my mind refuses to parse the above statement.  My inner theater is running the following short:

"So, to make you better, I shoot you?"
"Yes."
"Your funeral pal."
BANG
*Watches former friend bleed to death.*

[Mister Andersen]

Plus no "Role: Healer" - because lets be honest, playing Healbot 1.5 in D&D sucks about as hard as it does in WoW.

One upside to SWTOR is that you heal your friends by shooting or exploding them, and, if you must, calling in healing droids. 

[Sletchman]

I'm not exactly "against" it so much as "jadedly bored".

"Tied to a concept born out of human imagination" is a vague statement on my part, I'll admit that, but I tend to think of it as anything that doesn't have some real-world material analogue.  Shadow is just the absence of light energy, Psionics comes from a belief in a "mind" separate from the physical brain, Divine was created ultimately from humans trying to give sapient agency to the world around them.  Arcane I mostly don't like because it seems too undefined and therefore it seems more in line with metaphysical than physical.

What I would like to see is magic that is based off stuff that happens in the real world physically.  I don't mean magic based on the laws of physics but rather needed physical matter or energy: chemistry, electromagnetics, biological processes, moving objects, sound vibrations, etc.

And note: by "I would like to see" I mean in general for all types of RPG magic, not 5E D&D specifically.

Makes sense, and I agree in more then one way (in particularly "Shadow energy" rubs me entirely the wrong way as a concept).  I am a fan of Psionics though - as long as it is not just a magic system with slightly different mechanics and flavour.  A friend of mine mentioned a game where the magic system followed conservation and matter and energy (the former for all spells, the later for many) - I just can't remember the name of it.  I'll hit you back if it comes to me, might be worth your time reading it.


@Jim: Healing bullets tickle me.  One of my players (back when we played D&D) actually went out of his way to get a bow of healing (basically a cure wand built into a bow).  I'm in the minority where I actually like the modern videogame trend of getting rid of healing all together - I'd rather run a game the way Dragon Age: Origins does it (or other new games to a lesser extent, I just think DA:O hit a sweet spot).

[MilitiaJim]

I'm good with Shadow Energy.  It's the flip side of Life/Healing.  The duality makes sense to me.

Percussive healing:  Kolto Bomb and Kolto Missile

I guess I should give DA: O a shot?  But I don't miss healing when it isn't there.  It makes a sort of sense in the high magic setting, but there is so much that healing that the heroes have would change that really needs to be applied worldwide.  Healing magic really changes everything, even if it does retard progress in medicine.  (Or does it?  Would divination tell you about the invisible demons (germs) contaminating a wound?  Does Cure Minor Wounds cover for penicillin?)

[Sletchman]

I guess I should give DA: O a shot?  But I don't miss healing when it isn't there.  It makes a sort of sense in the high magic setting, but there is so much that healing that the heroes have would change that really needs to be applied worldwide.  Healing magic really changes everything, even if it does retard progress in medicine.  (Or does it?  Would divination tell you about the invisible demons (germs) contaminating a wound?  Does Cure Minor Wounds cover for penicillin?)

I enjoyed it as a game, and if you have spare time and want a cheap, quality title then go for it.

What I was referring to was the way that if the heroes "die" during a fight, they get back up at the end of it with a lingering injury (a cracked bone, a bleeding wound, etc) that gives them penalties until it's taken care of (downtime, in tabletop terms).  There is healing magic, but it's fairly big - you will almost always heal the target (or your entire group for mass) to full, and it has a reasonable mana cost (especially early on).

Conversely, with d20 games, healing magic sucks.  Even in Fantasy Craft it sucks.  At early levels, the caster spends their entire round doing nothing to negate maybe then the damage of a single attack.  At higher levels enemies will likely be tougher, so you haven't actually made progress (not to mention they are more likely to have multiple attacks in that round you did nothing).  In D&D, someone ends up playing a character whose entire job description is to let the characters move to the next encounter.  Even Fantasy Craft suffers from this - if no one is a mage you have players who want to "rest up" before the next possible fight which means they will want to sit around for Damage / Level hours.  Sure, as a GM you want to avoid boring sequences like that, but unless you hang a clock over them at all times it can be very hard to.  (I'm referring to a game with plenty of physical danger, this can be entirely disregarded for a political intrigue game.)

That's why I think for my next game I'm going to give healing spells a big upgrade, and have anyone who "dies" get a critical injury, as well as full vitality returned at the end of each fight - or something to that effect.

[foproy]

i never had that problem in 3.5 with healing people. especially at higher levels with access to spells like mass cure critical and mass heal. and then the spontaneous heal for clerics.