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Author Topic: Multiple Targets  (Read 1571 times)
ZetaStriker
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« on: December 31, 2011, 08:33:47 PM »

So looking over the list of Allomatic stunts, the one that jumps out to me is Multiple Targets - it seems so undefined. While obviously it makes things like "flight" possible, or at least far easier and less dangerous, but it also opens up one train of thought that isn't covered by the rules - with multiple targets, a Coinshot or Mistborn can fire several coins offensively at once.

Now, I can see this working several ways. The first is that it can deal one addition point of damage per point of positive outcome as more coins thunk into place. This is what I'm currently leaning toward, as it seems less game breaking as giving them +1 damage for each coin.

I can also see it working as a spread though - something that might affect an area or multiple targets. With Action Dice limitations there's obviously on so much this can do, but I can see it maybe making catching a beat easier so long as the second action is another coin attack.

Anyone else have any thoughts on how these situations should be ruled?
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Skywalker
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« Reply #1 on: December 31, 2011, 09:05:59 PM »

Make one attack roll against a number of targets up to your Steel or Iron. Each target makes a seperate defence roll.
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Agent 333
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« Reply #2 on: January 02, 2012, 03:22:23 PM »

I'd treat firing multiple coins at one target as a positive circumstance. As far as hitting multiple targets... I'd make them allocate some of their action dice to each target, rather than letting them make just one roll with their entire pool. It's more rolling, but it's also a hell of a lot more fair.
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Skywalker
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« Reply #3 on: January 02, 2012, 06:04:50 PM »

As a matter of interest, how would that approach add any benefit to Multiple Targets from what you can do normally i.e. allocate Action Dice to each attack?
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ZetaStriker
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« Reply #4 on: January 04, 2012, 09:03:20 PM »

I suppose it would let you do it without needing the three nudges to catch a beat. It seems a bit more fair than letting them use one pool of action dice against the entire team, and you're clearing out a LOT of defense dice by doing that every round.
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Skywalker
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« Reply #5 on: January 04, 2012, 10:54:05 PM »

Actually that leads to a good question that is not clear in the rules. When I first read it it appeared that you can declare multiple actions in a single Beat and you spread your Action Dice that beat to resolve them. There are a few references to multiple actions in that section:

"At the start of each round, the Narrator and other players describe their characters' intended actions.

"Regardless of their Wits, characters who are surprised perhaps due to a failed Contest before the start of the Conflict always declare their actions before the characters getting the drop on them.

"IMPORTANT: These dice are not yet a pool and you may have any  number of them. They're called Action Dice and are used to form pools for various actions you take throughout the Conflict Round."


This would allow a person to make multiple attacks by spreading around their Action Dice as suggested here, hence my question. However, it seems like people are assuming that you can only declare one Action per beat. If that is the case (and it would make sense if it was) then I think that should be made explicit.
« Last Edit: January 04, 2012, 11:05:24 PM by Skywalker » Logged
Akerbos
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« Reply #6 on: January 05, 2012, 08:37:26 AM »

If you read the books, you'll see (iirc) that experienced Coinshots and talented Mistborn can Push on metal without thinking much. I think the stunt Multiple Targets is one way of ruleifying that: a character with this stunt can shoot several coins at once and hit several targets. Therefore, I think only one roll is needed. Of course, if this fails no coin hits. You could also roll once for every target but with the full attack pool.

An alternative would be to give defenders less dice to defend against such an attack if the attacker has Multiple Targets compared to when he does not. Wether you add defense dice on no-stunt attacks or remove dice on stunt attacks should not matter.

However, the stunt does not only apply to combat attacks. It also enables your character to push off multiple anchors when moving, for instance, enabling him to combine multiple vectors. This would not be possible for a character without the stunt, severly limiting his ability to travel in the direction he wants to go (relatively). Pushing opponents or incoming bullets away from you would be another example.

This makes me think that the stunt is rather important and characters without it would have real trouble in combat.
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Skywalker
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« Reply #7 on: January 05, 2012, 01:55:32 PM »

Given how powerful Pewter is, I don't see allowing one roll for an attack against multiple opponents up to one's Steel or Iron to be unbalanced.
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« Reply #8 on: January 05, 2012, 04:46:50 PM »

According to the definition of beat given under game terms, it says that generally a character may act once in each beat.

I don't think the Multiple Targets stunt was intended to allow you to attack multiple targets any more than carrying 2 daggers lets you attack more targets.

As someone else mentioned, one of the things it would let you do is make nuanced course changes while in mid "flight" without having to release your anchor.  It could even give you the the capability to maintain a stationary position in mid air if you simultaneously push off of 3 ground level anchors.  You can't do this if you are just pushing off from a single point.
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Baijo Gosum
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« Reply #9 on: January 05, 2012, 05:13:02 PM »

not to be that guy but kelsier says in the book you can remain stationary in the air with just one anchor

Multiple Targets: You have finer control of your Steelpushing, and
may simultaneously
Push a number of individual metal objects up to your
Steel rating.

If it is simultaneously doesn't that count as one action?
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Bill Whitmore
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« Reply #10 on: January 05, 2012, 05:40:54 PM »

not to be that guy but kelsier says in the book you can remain stationary in the air with just one anchor

You can, but you'd have to be directly over the anchor.  It'd be more akin to balancing on the end of a long pole as opposed to having stable legs to rest on.

With multiple targets, on the other hand, you can gain elevation and maintain that elevation anywhere within a triangle formed by any 3 anchors within range.

It'd be the difference of trying to balance on a unicycle vs a 3-wheeled ATV.

If it is simultaneously doesn't that count as one action?

So if I stab 2 people simultaneously wouldn't it count as one action?

By default no.  Why?  Because you can't attack multiple targets with one action*.  Nothing in the Multiple Targets stunt changes that.  It does offer up more options for the player, gaining extra actions in a beat isn't one of them unless they get 3 Nudges on the first attack to catch a beat.


*Except Extras in Epic combat, and even then you don't declare multiple targets you just kill these guys quickly, whether or not you have the Multiple Targets stunt.
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Baijo Gosum
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« Reply #11 on: January 05, 2012, 06:07:30 PM »

I don't know if you can use a melee example in the same context

If I put out my hand with 3 coins and push all all 3 with the same steal push they could hit three different people in front of me.

two daggers require two different limbs with two different motions.  I did think about that example before but maybe I am being two nit picky with it

I guess it depends on if you consider it one steel push on three targets or 3 different steel pushes that occur at the same time.

I was thinking of more of a shot gun effect not a duel welding pistil effect

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Akerbos
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« Reply #12 on: January 06, 2012, 04:51:14 AM »

In order to shoot three people with three coins in one push in a controlled way, you definitely need to check for each coin's trajectory. In particular because you can only push them straight away from your own center of mass. So it would be fair to say that you have to control three independent mental limbs.
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Baijo Gosum
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« Reply #13 on: January 06, 2012, 09:52:01 AM »

How about in an uncontrolled way?  Lets say I have Steel 5 and have the appropriate stunt.  Can I toss 5 coins in the air and push on them all with the same steel push.  I am picturing the old cone attack from dnd 3rd addition.  Could I hit more than one target with that one action?
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Bill Whitmore
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« Reply #14 on: January 06, 2012, 02:50:30 PM »

I am going to look at this from a pure mechanics standpoint for a moment.

There were 2 options presented for this:
   A) Multiple targets, split dice pool between targets
   B) Multiple targets, 1 roll

A) is already in the game but as it stands it usually requires catching a beat to do.  Multiple targets would basically remove the need to catch a beat to make additional attacks.

B) would allow the Allomancer to make multiple attacks using one set of dice.  The targets would each have to defend using their Action or Defense Dice.  This would allow the Allomancer to use his one set of dice to reduce the Action and Dice pools of three targets (for newly snapped), and up to 10 targets at the highest end.


If you are going to allow one of these, it almost has to be A).  Allowing someone to make 1-full pool die roll that depletes the dice pools of up to even 3 other targets is overpowered.  Allow it for up to 10 and it is WAY overpowered.


In general, I wouldn't allow a single conflict action to target more than one enemy.  I feel that Multiple Targets has enough other uses that it doesn't need the ability to kill multiple people simultaneously inherently built into it.
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