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Author Topic: Bend Alloy/Cadmium  (Read 3522 times)
Stubbazubba
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« Reply #30 on: February 14, 2012, 01:42:34 AM »

That would render it completely useless, then, wouldn't it?

That depends on how you define useless. In the novel, Alloy of Law, Wayne uses the bubble to hold a short conversation with Wax right under the nose of some guests. Now, if your definition only includes physical conflicts, it is less useful as an "I win!" button. That's what Atium is for!  Wink

What I meant was that that rule would never even come into play if the bonus disappeared when you dropped the bubble.  Adding your bendalloy rating to an action taken against someone outside the bubble would be a complete hypothetical, thus making the rule entirely moot, in which case it should be deleted.  I get the feeling that wasn't their intention, though.

Edit:  Looks like it may be under review.  Aminar, I would totally be interested in your opinion.
« Last Edit: February 14, 2012, 01:47:05 AM by Stubbazubba » Logged
ReaderAt2046
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« Reply #31 on: February 14, 2012, 09:25:36 AM »


Note two things:

first, the penalty on physical attacks through a bubble is in line with AoL.

Second, that penalty only applies to physical attacks. There are lots of other things you can do with a speed bubble. For example, suppose you need to change clothes in front of a crowd without anyone noticing. That would be a Wits vs. Wits check and you'd gain the bonus.
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Dreamstreamer
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« Reply #32 on: February 14, 2012, 07:24:22 PM »

What I meant was that that rule would never even come into play if the bonus disappeared when you dropped the bubble.  Adding your bendalloy rating to an action taken against someone outside the bubble would be a complete hypothetical, thus making the rule entirely moot, in which case it should be deleted.  I get the feeling that wasn't their intention, though.

I'm not following this line of thought. I can see lots of examples where Bendalloy could come into play. Do you see Bendalloy as only useful in combat? Or that it should provide a bonus for offensive actions through the bubble? Is there a certain example from the source material where the heroes successfully attack from within a Bendalloy bubble?

(click to show/hide)

I also just realized that I never addressed the original post.

These are possibly the coolest metals ever.  For my campaign I have a player that wants to be a Slider(BendAlloy) and I want to contextually work in the availability of the metal, and the knowledge of it via a specific gang.  The idea is that the two gang leaders combine a larger Cadmium(Slow-Time) bubble overlapping their Bendalloy(Fast-Time) bubble to lock their opponents in place while allowing their minions to prepare strikes from behind.  Essentially creating super-ambushes.

Aminar, I think that the secrets of Cadmium and Bendalloy during the Final Empire would be a lot of fun! Your idea for the trap "donut" would probably need the larger Cadmium bubble to be erected first. Then the smaller Bendalloy bubble could be erected to sandwich the target in a slow zone between the two normal zones. Of course, the Cadmium and Bendalloy would need to be set to use the same multiplier, so they cancel out appropriately in the central section. Communication between the two "normal" zones would probably have to be done using some kind of hand signals, as sound doesn't appear to propagate between bubbles very well. At least, it didn't in the novel...

Heck, with a setup like that, you could hire yourselves out as ambush ambushers! They would be incredible bodyguards!

And then I thought of something else.

Do Cadmium Bubbles collapse when you leave them?  Using Flared Cadmium you could create a pair of bendalloy bubbles to move yourself out of the cadmium Bubble, set up explosives, run away, and drop the bubble.  Instaunavoidable bombing...

As to this second idea, when a pulser/slider leaves the created bubble, the bubble is destroyed. See the last sentence of the second paragraph on pages 361 (pulser) and 365 (slider). "Instaunavoidable bombing", as described, would affect the bubble creator, too.
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Aminar
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« Reply #33 on: February 14, 2012, 07:53:34 PM »

What I meant was that that rule would never even come into play if the bonus disappeared when you dropped the bubble.  Adding your bendalloy rating to an action taken against someone outside the bubble would be a complete hypothetical, thus making the rule entirely moot, in which case it should be deleted.  I get the feeling that wasn't their intention, though.

I'm not following this line of thought. I can see lots of examples where Bendalloy could come into play. Do you see Bendalloy as only useful in combat? Or that it should provide a bonus for offensive actions through the bubble? Is there a certain example from the source material where the heroes successfully attack from within a Bendalloy bubble?

(click to show/hide)

I also just realized that I never addressed the original post.

These are possibly the coolest metals ever.  For my campaign I have a player that wants to be a Slider(BendAlloy) and I want to contextually work in the availability of the metal, and the knowledge of it via a specific gang.  The idea is that the two gang leaders combine a larger Cadmium(Slow-Time) bubble overlapping their Bendalloy(Fast-Time) bubble to lock their opponents in place while allowing their minions to prepare strikes from behind.  Essentially creating super-ambushes.

Aminar, I think that the secrets of Cadmium and Bendalloy during the Final Empire would be a lot of fun! Your idea for the trap "donut" would probably need the larger Cadmium bubble to be erected first. Then the smaller Bendalloy bubble could be erected to sandwich the target in a slow zone between the two normal zones. Of course, the Cadmium and Bendalloy would need to be set to use the same multiplier, so they cancel out appropriately in the central section. Communication between the two "normal" zones would probably have to be done using some kind of hand signals, as sound doesn't appear to propagate between bubbles very well. At least, it didn't in the novel...

Heck, with a setup like that, you could hire yourselves out as ambush ambushers! They would be incredible bodyguards!

And then I thought of something else.

Do Cadmium Bubbles collapse when you leave them?  Using Flared Cadmium you could create a pair of bendalloy bubbles to move yourself out of the cadmium Bubble, set up explosives, run away, and drop the bubble.  Instaunavoidable bombing...
There are no examples of characters within bubbles firing out succesfuly due to the bubble being up, but there are examples of bubbles dropping after the characters have taken aim/thrown explosives so the opposition cant dodge as well.
As to this second idea, when a pulser/slider leaves the created bubble, the bubble is destroyed. See the last sentence of the second paragraph on pages 361 (pulser) and 365 (slider). "Instaunavoidable bombing", as described, would affect the bubble creator, too.
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Dreamstreamer
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« Reply #34 on: February 14, 2012, 10:23:14 PM »

There are no examples of characters within bubbles firing out succesfuly due to the bubble being up, but there are examples of bubbles dropping after the characters have taken aim/thrown explosives so the opposition cant dodge as well.

Wouldn't that just be a surprise circumstance modifier? A little bonus? To me, the protagonists' success hinged more on Wax's skill with firearms. To me, Wax is a bit like freddiew using aimbot, only with revolvers. Wayne just gave Wax time to catch his breath before the next crazy salvo.

Edit: Wayne is still my favorite Mistborn character.
« Last Edit: February 14, 2012, 10:26:11 PM by Dreamstreamer » Logged
Aminar
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« Reply #35 on: February 14, 2012, 11:59:53 PM »

Yes, but it nullifies the supposed near impossibility of such shots, which is...  seems to me to be directly contradictory.
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« Reply #36 on: February 15, 2012, 02:04:02 AM »

Yes, but it nullifies the supposed near impossibility of such shots, which is...  seems to me to be directly contradictory.

What part seems contradictory? That Wax can take impossible shots from within a speed bubble? Miles seems to think that Wax's accuracy is inhuman, even when Wayne isn't around. In game terms, I guess that I view Wax getting bonus dice from his own traits in order to make his crazy shots rather than from the Bendalloy bubble.

But, as I feel like we're going in circles (or narrowly missing each others viewpoints), let me try to restate what I believe you are trying to say:
Wax is getting bonus dice from Wayne's Bendalloy bubble, as it gives him time to plan his next move and line up his next shot.

Is that right?

Maybe we just need some stats for the pair of them...
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Aminar
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« Reply #37 on: February 15, 2012, 02:28:23 AM »

The part where you are almost just as likely to hit firing from in a bendalloy bubble than firing from outside it, plus gaining a better chance at bonus damage via nudges. 

Ignore Wax being awesome.  Take Wayne, standing in his bubble.  He fires a gun(We know he wouldn't but the point stands.)  He has say, Physique 4.  He fires at another person with physique 4.

His odds of hitting someone in a normal shot.  Roughly 50/50 with a shot at hitting and 2/3 attacks will have 1 nudge.

Now Firing from a Bubble assuming Bendalloy 5(low, but serves my purposes.)  His odds of hitting.  Still 50/50. But with 1 nudge on average and 2 half the time. (Because both him and the target are rolling nine dice.
That's wrong.  It should require insane skill/physique just to have a chance of hitting someone normal from within a bubble.  It doesn't matter how long they have to aim, it comes down to the fact it is supposed to be almost impossible.  Assuming Wax adds his physique and steel rating plus a trait and a gun designed for accuracy, he should reasonably be able to pull off a miracle shot against physique 4+The bendalloy bonus.  That's Wax.  Guns are his thing, and he's quite good with them.
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« Reply #38 on: February 15, 2012, 10:04:12 AM »

The part where you are almost just as likely to hit firing from in a bendalloy bubble than firing from outside it, plus gaining a better chance at bonus damage via nudges. 

Ignore Wax being awesome.  Take Wayne, standing in his bubble.  He fires a gun(We know he wouldn't but the point stands.)  He has say, Physique 4.  He fires at another person with physique 4.

His odds of hitting someone in a normal shot.  Roughly 50/50 with a shot at hitting and 2/3 attacks will have 1 nudge.

Now Firing from a Bubble assuming Bendalloy 5(low, but serves my purposes.)  His odds of hitting.  Still 50/50. But with 1 nudge on average and 2 half the time. (Because both him and the target are rolling nine dice.
That's wrong.  It should require insane skill/physique just to have a chance of hitting someone normal from within a bubble.  It doesn't matter how long they have to aim, it comes down to the fact it is supposed to be almost impossible.  Assuming Wax adds his physique and steel rating plus a trait and a gun designed for accuracy, he should reasonably be able to pull off a miracle shot against physique 4+The bendalloy bonus.  That's Wax.  Guns are his thing, and he's quite good with them.

Aha! Lightbulb! Thanks for clarifying, Aminar!

So, you see it as a zero sum with both the defender and the attacker getting the same number of bonus dice, right? I can see how the rules support your position.

I read it as attacking through the bubble (either direction) provides a Bendalloy bonus to the defender only, with all other actions done within the bubble AND targeting a subject outside the bubble getting a Bendalloy bonus. I suppose I read it that way because the word 'attack' is used in one instance and 'action' is used in the other. But, an 'attack' is an action. Hmm...
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Aminar
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« Reply #39 on: February 15, 2012, 10:17:51 AM »

Which is why my original interpretation was that you got that action bonus after dropping the bubble as a reflection of the extra time given to prepare, which has a few in book moments, but might be broken on game, given that bendalloy becomes a bonus on any versus Pc/npc action.   
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« Reply #40 on: February 15, 2012, 11:21:26 AM »

Which is why my original interpretation was that you got that action bonus after dropping the bubble as a reflection of the extra time given to prepare, which has a few in book moments, but might be broken on game, given that bendalloy becomes a bonus on any versus Pc/npc action.  

Wouldn't the attacker have to drop the bubble every time in order to get a bonus on attacking? At the same time, said attacker would be denied any bonus to defense from return fire, as the bubble would be down, correct?

That seems like a lot of up and down on the bubble, which supposedly takes a few seconds between raising and lowering. How would this tie in to the concept of beats? In combat, beats are supposed to last 5-10 seconds, right? Would that mean that the bubble can be up or down on a given beat, but not both? Meaning a character could not have a raised bubble, drop it to get a bonus and fire, then raise it again for defense, all in a single beat.

Am I overthinking this?

Edit: Looking at the "Circumstances in Combat" section on page 195 reinforces my belief that the bonuses that Wax enjoys are the result of favorable combat conditions provided when Wayne's Bendalloy bubble is lowered, not from the bubble itself. Still, the Bendalloy rules could probably use some clarifying between actions and attacks. On a related note: Why isn't there a penalty to actions taken from within a Cadmium bubble against targets without? Wouldn't it effectively be the inverse of the Bendalloy bubble? Maybe instead of a penalty, all actions taken from outside a Cadmium bubble against targets within get a bonus? I can think of a few uses for that and teamwork.
« Last Edit: February 15, 2012, 11:36:41 AM by Dreamstreamer » Logged
Aminar
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« Reply #41 on: February 15, 2012, 12:29:24 PM »

If I had to guess.  Because when the rules were written Alloy of Law wasn't out and they only had basic descriptions(But that's a guess.)

Yeah.  Bendalloy and Cadmium both feel a little bare.  That said, all those questions you asked(except the cadmium one.) were in the PM I sent Alex and Pat.

Me being a terrible gamer and all, I fully plan on running with a, it works kinda like this in the book; lets keep it feeling that way approach.  My players enjoy that more anyway.

For instance, I did just what you suggested and assumed the bendalloy rules are really the rules for someone who is in a faster time-frame than someone else.
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« Reply #42 on: February 15, 2012, 01:31:44 PM »

If I had to guess.  Because when the rules were written Alloy of Law wasn't out and they only had basic descriptions(But that's a guess.)

I think that makes for a reasonable assumption.

Yeah.  Bendalloy and Cadmium both feel a little bare.  That said, all those questions you asked(except the cadmium one.) were in the PM I sent Alex and Pat.

Great minds, and all of that, eh? Wink

Me being a terrible gamer and all, I fully plan on running with a, it works kinda like this in the book; lets keep it feeling that way approach.  My players enjoy that more anyway.

Are you kidding? That's not being a terrible gamer at all! And it's supported by the rule book, too! See "Collaborating with the Players" on page 382 and "You have the right to ignore any rule" on page 385. I imagine that your self-deprecating comment is in jest, but I thought I might slide some rules backup your way. You know, in case you're ever lambasted by a rules lawyer (likely, not one of your players).

For instance, I did just what you suggested and assumed the bendalloy rules are really the rules for someone who is in a faster time-frame than someone else.

"Great minds" rides again! Of into the sunset...or something...
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Aminar
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« Reply #43 on: February 15, 2012, 02:10:45 PM »

Although I just realized that Cadmium causes twice the time dilation Bendalloy does.  Meaning that in theory being in a Cadmium Bubble is made of SUCK.
 
This is a chart of How Bendalloy and Cadmium charges work at maximum burn.  The Numbers higher than ten simulate the double burn speed stunts.
Rating   Seconds in per second out   Bendalloy charges per second   [Most uses per charge]
1           10                                           1 30th of a charge                   30
2           20                                           1 15th of a charge                   15
3           30                                           1 10th of a charge                   10
4           40                                           2 15ths of a charge                     7
5           50                                           1 6th of a charge                     6
6           60                                           1 5th of a charge                     5
7           70                                           7 30ths of a charge                     4
8           80                                           4 15ths of a charge                     3
9           90                                           3 10ths of a charge                     3
10          100                                           1 3rd of a charge                     3
11          110                                           11 30ths of a charge             2
12          120                                           2 5ths of a charge                     2
13          130                                           13 30ths of a charge             2
14          140                                           7 15ths of a charge                     2
15          150                                           1 half of a charge                     2
16          160                                           8 15ths of a charge                     1
17          170                                           17 30ths of a charge             1
18          180                                           3 5ths of a charge                     1
19          190                                          19 30ths of a charge                     1
20          200                                           2 3rds of a charge                     1
Rating   1 Minute in versus minutes out   Time outside the bubble for 1 Charge
1                                                20      13 hours 20 minutes
2                                                40      26 hours 40 minutes
3                                                60      40 hours
4                                                80           53 hours 20 minutes
5                                              100      66 hours 40 minutes
6                                              120      80 hours
7                                              140      93 hours 20 minutes
8                                              160      106 hours 40 minutes
9                                              180      120 hours
10                                              200      133 hours 20 minutes
11                                              220      146 hours 40 minutes
12                                              240      160 hours
13                                              260      173 hours 20 minutes
14                                              280      186 hours 40 minutes
15                                              300      200 hours
16                                              320      213 hours 20 minutes
17                                              340      226 hours 40 minutes
18                                              360      240 hours
19                                              380      253 hours 20 minutes
20                                              400      266 hours 40 minutes
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Stubbazubba
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« Reply #44 on: February 15, 2012, 08:06:23 PM »

What I meant was that that rule would never even come into play if the bonus disappeared when you dropped the bubble.  Adding your bendalloy rating to an action taken against someone outside the bubble would be a complete hypothetical, thus making the rule entirely moot, in which case it should be deleted.  I get the feeling that wasn't their intention, though.

I'm not following this line of thought. I can see lots of examples where Bendalloy could come into play. Do you see Bendalloy as only useful in combat? Or that it should provide a bonus for offensive actions through the bubble? Is there a certain example from the source material where the heroes successfully attack from within a Bendalloy bubble?

(click to show/hide)

Not from within a bubble, but the way Wayne consistently defeats multiple enemies who not only outnumber him but have the luxury of shooting at range while he is constrained to fight in melee, seems to indicate that it's worth a little more than half of a Circumstance die.  But, I suppose we can just chalk that up to his relatively awesome Physique score, since he can rely on Bendalloy to give him free Defense Dice, his Gold Feruchemy allowing him to shrug off most injuries, and the fact that he only ever fights Extras, so they go down quickly.  Fair enough.

Ah, yes, there are out-of-combat applications, so it's not purely a hypothetical.  As written, though, the rule indicates that those taking social actions against those outside the bubble would also get the bonus, but that's ridiculous.

Edit:  I would rule that Sliders can move to superior positioning, and then take the time to aim, accruing two positive circumstances, thus gaining an extra die, before they drop the bubble.  Thus, they still get some benefit to their attacks, and can put the bubble back up at the end of their turn, giving them extra Defense Dice.  The lucky few who get past all that extra Defense are those who get to him before the bubble gets up, though that's somewhat unintuitive because it's possible for someone else to attack and use up several Defense Dice before the second one attacks, which hits, but theoretically hit him before the first attacker.  Oh, well.  Maybe they hit him after the bubble went down out of sheer dumb luck.
« Last Edit: February 15, 2012, 08:11:29 PM by Stubbazubba » Logged
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