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Author Topic: New Specialty benefit for spellcasters  (Read 1033 times)
Foghorn
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« on: December 23, 2011, 05:57:56 PM »

So here's kind of what I'm thinking:

  • Combat Mage: The DC for saving throws to resist your spells is also increased by the number of Basic Combat feats you possess.

What do you peoples think? I'm thinking probably only a 1 or 2 point benefit, but does it look like something you'd be interested in? Is it too enticing as a benefit?
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Coyote0273
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« Reply #1 on: December 23, 2011, 07:19:21 PM »

So you get the bonus increase from Spellcasting AND Basic Combat?
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Sletchman
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« Reply #2 on: December 23, 2011, 08:04:13 PM »

I'd call it 2 points, but other then that I don't see any drama (I'd also make it Specialties only, without a really specific reason to put it in a Species/Talent).

You could even got a step further, and make it more generic, like Feat Tree Expert (needs a better name):
Multi-Disciplined: Your X feats count as Y for the purposes of effects based on number of perminant Y feats you possess. [2pts]
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Foghorn
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« Reply #3 on: December 23, 2011, 10:01:53 PM »

Coyote0273: Yes, but that was just the example. The Specialty I was playing with in my head was actually going to tie it into Style feats.

Sletchman: Yeah, I definitely think I'm leaning more towards the 2pt persuasion. Although, I think I might keep it at the current Spellcasting DCs only. I think I'm a little paranoid towards wonky builds with PL's and Animal Partners, but I tend to just be paranoid in general.
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Sletchman
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« Reply #4 on: December 24, 2011, 01:33:40 AM »

Sletchman: Yeah, I definitely think I'm leaning more towards the 2pt persuasion. Although, I think I might keep it at the current Spellcasting DCs only. I think I'm a little paranoid towards wonky builds with PL's and Animal Partners, but I tend to just be paranoid in general.

Fair points.  Just a point - if you make it general, then the extra feats will also boost Familiar (which I like - especially given your second example of Style feats).

EDIT: Given a little bit of addition thought, I think you could have 2 versions:
1pt - Feats from X tree count as Y for the purposes of one specific ability (see Captain, or your Spell DC example).
2pt - Feats from X tree count as Y for all purposes (see Hart Noble* and Tiger Noble**).

* Hart Noble makes it tricky - if we assume that Species feats are worth ~2pts (almost all are), and it's trick is worth 1pt, then the two feat swaps are worth 0.5pts each.  It's possible that this is because there are very few effects that count "number of Covert feats" - it might get some kind of limited use discount. 

**Tiger Noble only has one instance of the ability, along with a what is effectively a trick, but it's for a tree that calls for number of feats slightly more often, but also targets a tree you usually have very few feats in (because Species frequently have level 1 only restrictions) - again suggesting a limited use discount.

With that in mind, I think my above costs are fairly accurate - the only thing that would give me pause are trees with abundant access and/or tree's that have number of feats called on often or for a powerful effect (Chance, and possibly Style are my only real concerns).  They just need snappy names.
« Last Edit: December 24, 2011, 01:44:45 AM by Sletchman » Logged
SilvercatMoonpaw
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« Reply #5 on: December 24, 2011, 09:10:12 AM »

I thought Species feats seemed more like 2.5 points.
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Coyote0273
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« Reply #6 on: December 24, 2011, 02:30:49 PM »

I thought Species feats seemed more like 2.5 points.

The cost listed in the wiki is 2 points.
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Big_Jim
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« Reply #7 on: December 24, 2011, 03:40:45 PM »

I like these. I changed the wording to fit in line with the (FEAT TREE) Expert text and the best naming convention I could come up with was to emphasis the synergistic quality of the benefit in the name. What'd-ya-think?

Quote
Specialty Benefit Point Values
1 point
   (ONE SPECIFIC ABILITY, FEAT, TRICK ETC.) Synergy: Your (FEAT TREE X) feats count as (FEAT TREE Y) feats for (ONE SPECIFIC ABILITY, FEAT, TRICK ETC.). (see the Captain's Right-hand man ability for an example.)

2 points
   (FEAT TREE X/FEAT TREE Y) Synergy: Your (FEAT TREE X) feats count as (FEAT TREE Y) feats for any ability based on the number of (FEAT TREE Y) feats you have.

Examples of the (ONE SPECIFIC ABILITY, FEAT, TRICK ETC.) Synergy ability.

   Combat Mage Synergy: Your Basic Combat feats count as Spellcasting feats when calculating the DC for saving throws to resist your spells.

   Stylish Triumph Synergy: Your Style feats count as Melee Combat feats for the Triumphant Swing Trick.

   War-trained Synergy: Your Basic Combat feats count as Terrain feats when determining your Animal Companion's XP value.

Examples of the (FEAT TREE X/FEAT TREE Y) Synergy ability are much more straight forward.

   Basic Combat/Melee Combat Synergy: Your Basic Combat feats count as Melee Combat feats for any ability based on the number of Melee Combat feats you have.

...and so on.
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Antilles
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« Reply #8 on: December 24, 2011, 04:56:16 PM »

I thought Species feats seemed more like 2.5 points.

The cost listed in the wiki is 2 points.

The cost for an Origin to have a Species feat is 2 points (this is what is listed in the wiki), while most species feats have a package of abilities that would come out to 2-2,5 if put in an Origin (which is what I believe SilvercatMoonpaw was referencing).
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« Reply #9 on: December 24, 2011, 09:25:35 PM »

Traditionally, grouping feat types has been a class benefit or a higher level feat benefit. I'm kind of curious how this would play out. Would there be some way to make three or more types of feats all count as Spellcasting feats with this benefit?
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Big_Jim
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« Reply #10 on: December 24, 2011, 10:50:09 PM »

Right now there are only three published instances of this ability that could cause this: Perfect Form from the Swashbuckler (Chance and Style count as Melee Combat), War, by Other Means from the Gallant (Style count as Melee Combat and Melee Combat count as Style), and the Tiger Noble feat (Species count as Unarmed Combat).

So if you invented a Specialty that offered...

   Melee Combat/Spellcasting Synergy: Your Melee Combat feats count as Spellcasting feats for any ability based on the number of Spellcasting feats you have.

...and then reached level 4 as a swashbuckler, your Chance, Style, Melee Combat and Spellcasting feats would all count as Spellcasting feats. Of course, you've invested your feats and abilities into a really diverse build at that point, so YMMV.


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Sletchman
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« Reply #11 on: December 25, 2011, 06:52:40 PM »

Nice call on [XXX] Synergy - I was actually considering using the word Synergy in the name yesterday at my family gathering (for the exact same reasons).

I don't think the level of groupings will get too insane - the big potential "problem areas" will be chance and style in my mind, and certainly not spellcasting (+3-5 DC, at most, isn't a huge drama when you think about it - especially given a fairly high level of investment and a specialised build/concept).

Multiclass casters (with Swashbuckler, Gallant requires way to much investment) will be 2 spell levels behind their compatriates, for Chance + Style + Melee to be added to their DC, which is cool - but 2 extra spell levels is far more useful, IMO.  Also severely limits their origins choices to (likely) a single option.  On the other hand [Combat] -> Spellcasting would make for a cool battlemage archetype, and be useful for the specialists (Chaneller with [Combat] Synergy would be delicious, but not overpowered).

The only thing I would never do is a [XXX] -> Chance ability.  4-5 Extra Action Dice (especially if [XXX] is easy to obtain - any combat tree for example) is just too much.  Take that opinion with a grain of salt though, because I also think that Chance Expert is undercosted by a large margin (and to be honest, I have a well documented problem with Fortunate).

I think we should make a new page in the wiki for improvised Origin abilities - there's a heap of them floating around on different threads, and having them in one place would be good (easier to find, too).  I'm busy for the rest of today, but I'll do it tonight / tomorrow if I get a chance and no one else does it.
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Foghorn
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« Reply #12 on: December 27, 2011, 11:24:39 AM »

Well, I'm liking the way everything's looking here. Thanks for the input everyone! Here's what I'm thinking as far as it's all concerned.

The increased cost listed in wiki concerning Species feats wouldn't really factor in too much for the purposes of this ability as I understand it. The increased cost of Species feats in Specialties is because if you open up the possibility of taking more than one 'Level 1 only' feat, that's where things go wonky. Since this isn't doing that, I don't think extra weight on Species feats here should apply.

Slecthman's concern on Chance feats, I could see. I have yet to have a player abuse Fortunate or Chance builds too much, so I can't really comment on that one too far. Plus, there's a whole 'nother giant thread regarding that one, so I won't worry about going into that here.

So, for my Specialties, I'm probably going to stick with just the saving throw DC increase. I've had another plan for the Captain and his ability for a while now, so maybe I'll work up the courage to put that whole plan up here before too long. While I like Big_Jim's idea of pushing this out into the realm of certain combat tricks, too, I would probably allow the boost to at least 3 tricks to make it more substantial.
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Morgenstern
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« Reply #13 on: January 06, 2012, 04:45:01 AM »

Feats from other trees counting shows up as a expert class ability quite often, which gets into the 3-4 point range. As the original example is only one tree to only another tree, and only for a limited aspect (the saves) I think that 2 points is probaly a nice round number to work with. Especially as this particular use is giving the character a wider range of synergistic options, not any more abolute power (they could have just picked spellcasting feats in the first place).

Its a good option. Yoink! Smiley
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