Lets talk about Feruchemists

[Dreamstreamer]

He also recovers 60 charges of both per short breather, which is quite a lot of recharge.

I believe this is mistaken. Sazed has a physique of 4. This means (according to the rules on pg. 301) that Sazed can, at most, only store 3 charges in a pewter metalmind per hour. So, depending on the length of your short breather (1 hour to 1 day), Sazed would be limited to storing between 3 and 72 charges (barring no interruptions), with the additional caveat that he would be at a physique of 1 during that time (which has implications of its own). To get 60 charges would take 20 hours, which is not an insignificant amount of time.

Just, you know, FYI.

[Skywalker]

I believe this is mistaken. Sazed has a physique of 4. This means (according to the rules on pg. 301) that Sazed can, at most, only store 3 charges in a pewter metalmind per hour.

You are correct Though that's true under both approaches.

I don't think that alters the rest of what was said in terms of how many Elder Koloss Sazed could take out in one scene. 10 under the RAW and 7 with the patch (again, assuming that they weren't Extras). I don't find that discrepancy to be overwhelming as the Deathstar Terrismen dilemma but YMMV

[Dreamstreamer]

Deathstar Terrismen dilemma

Hehe. I like that. Though the imperials didn't seem that reluctant to use their power...

[Skywalker]

That level of complication is already in the system in the Contests and Outcomes section.  In fact, I had already assumed Outcome was the difference between attacker's Result and defender's Result because it had already been defined that way.

Just going back to the idea with using Outcome as a basis for damage. There is a potential issue with this approach for powerful opponents as the amount of damage begins to decrease. This could turn such combat into an endless grind.

Looking at a PC with 8d, they have a 84% chance of getting a 3, 4 or 5. This means that there is an approximate 70% chance that damage will only range from 1 to 3, which may likely be neutralised by armour.

The advantage of the current design is that as combatants become more powerful (and their health and armour likely to be higher) then damage also begins to increase, dramatically so at the higher levels. This keeps high level duels tense and should help avoid the blow out in duration.

[Crafty_Pat]

Hey everyone,

Wanted to let you know that we're watching the conversation, and that nothing said here is ignored.

The Feruchemy rules are intended to support the wild, over-the-top action portrayed in the novels, but we do also have to be mindful of balance and fun, especially at "lower experience levels." Our current plan is to add a bit of language clarifying that tapped charges cannot add more dice than are traditionally allowed in a pool (so, 10), and beyond that enforce the 5 charges per additional Nudge rule for the really spectacular effects.

We think this will achieve all the desired results and satisfy all styles of play. Of course, we're open to feedback, and would love to see relevant conversation continue.

Carry on!

[Skywalker]

Fantastic. Good to know.

[Leviathan]

Awesome, thanks for the feedback

[Dreamstreamer]

Our current plan is to add a bit of language clarifying that tapped charges cannot add more dice than are traditionally allowed in a pool (so, 10), and beyond that enforce the 5 charges per additional Nudge rule for the really spectacular effects.

So, is it this: A feruchemist with physique of 4 can use up to 10 charges to add 10 dice, bringing the dice pool to 10 with 4 nudges. Any further boost comes at 5 charges per nudge and 10 charges per point of outcome.

Or is it this: A feruchemist with a physique of 4 can use up to 6 charges, bringing the dice pool to 10. Any nudges cost 5 charges and points of outcome cost 10 charges.

From your explanation, I can see it interpreted either way.

[fortyCakes]

Per my reading of the rules, it already works that way in combat.

When forming your Action Dice pool, you declare how many charges you're tapping. This adds that many Action Dice to the pool.

When your turn comes around (probably first) you can form a pool of 2-10 dice by taking dice from your Action Dice pool. If you want to increase Outcome or Nudges on this roll, you have to declare at the tapping stage, which happens when you declare your action.

For Contests and Challenges, however, the fix above is still needed.

EDIT: I have noticed that they do seem to be superpowered anyway with this - a starting Feruchemist can stand to go toe-to-toe with a Steel Inquisitor and have a chance of escaping alive (even if they can't actually harm it) which even a starting Mistborn couldn't really hope to do, at least without Duralumin (which is a powerful Secret on its own).

[Skywalker]

[So, is it this: A feruchemist with physique of 4 can use up to 10 charges to add 10 dice, bringing the dice pool to 10 with 4 nudges. Any further boost comes at 5 charges per nudge and 10 charges per point of outcome.

Or is it this: A feruchemist with a physique of 4 can use up to 6 charges, bringing the dice pool to 10. Any nudges cost 5 charges and points of outcome cost 10 charges.

From your explanation, I can see it interpreted either way.

The later, I am pretty sure i.e. you can buy your pool up to 10d at 1 charge per dice, but anytime you want Nudges its 5 charges.

[Skywalker]

Per my reading of the rules, it already works that way in combat.

When forming your Action Dice pool, you declare how many charges you're tapping. This adds that many Action Dice to the pool.

When your turn comes around (probably first) you can form a pool of 2-10 dice by taking dice from your Action Dice pool. If you want to increase Outcome or Nudges on this roll, you have to declare at the tapping stage, which happens when you declare your action.

For Contests and Challenges, however, the fix above is still needed.

The differences is that the rules seemed to say that you could tap 1 charge to get 1 dice. Once you have over 10d, then each additional dice is a free Nudge. That means if you tap 30 charges and have a Physique of 5, the first 5 charges add 5d and the remaining 25 become 25 free Nudges.

The solution is to have any free Nudges  cost 5 charges, which is semi supported by the rules as written. So, the same Feruchemist would tap 30 charges and get +5d (up to 10d) and then get 5 free Nudges.

The difference between 5 Free Nudges and 25 free Nudges is significant. The later will kill a Steel Inquisitor. The former will scare the pants off one but not kill them. A Steel Inquisitor has around 18 Health with Gold Feruchemy, so that's a third of their Health and a Serious Burden at the very least, and likely more. But the feruchemist is suddenly left with a pissed off Inquistor and 1/3 of his charges depleted, so its a serious risk. That seems more in line with what we see in the books.

[Bill Whitmore]

[So, is it this: A feruchemist with physique of 4 can use up to 10 charges to add 10 dice, bringing the dice pool to 10 with 4 nudges. Any further boost comes at 5 charges per nudge and 10 charges per point of outcome.

Or is it this: A feruchemist with a physique of 4 can use up to 6 charges, bringing the dice pool to 10. Any nudges cost 5 charges and points of outcome cost 10 charges.

From your explanation, I can see it interpreted either way.

The later, I am pretty sure i.e. you can buy your pool up to 10d at 1 charge per dice, but anytime you want Nudges its 5 charges.

Hm, I was thinking it was the former. 

You can buy up to 10d at 1 charge per die to add to your pool.  Beyond that, extra effect can be had by expending 5 for a Nudge or 10 for an Outcome increase.

Powers in general can boost dice pools above 10, so I don't think it would be out of balanced in this case.  It was only the 20+ Nudges that was concerning me.

In either case, the final edit should make sure which method to use is clear.

[Aminar]

Per my reading of the rules, it already works that way in combat.

When forming your Action Dice pool, you declare how many charges you're tapping. This adds that many Action Dice to the pool.

When your turn comes around (probably first) you can form a pool of 2-10 dice by taking dice from your Action Dice pool. If you want to increase Outcome or Nudges on this roll, you have to declare at the tapping stage, which happens when you declare your action.

For Contests and Challenges, however, the fix above is still needed.

The differences is that the rules seemed to say that you could tap 1 charge to get 1 dice. Once you have over 10d, then each additional dice is a free Nudge. That means if you tap 30 charges and have a Physique of 5, the first 5 charges add 5d and the remaining 25 become 25 free Nudges.

The solution is to have any free Nudges  cost 5 charges, which is semi supported by the rules as written. So, the same Feruchemist would tap 30 charges and get +5d (up to 10d) and then get 5 free Nudges.

The difference between 5 Free Nudges and 25 free Nudges is significant. The later will kill a Steel Inquisitor. The former will scare the pants off one but not kill them. A Steel Inquisitor has around 18 Health with Gold Feruchemy, so that's a third of their Health and a Serious Burden at the very least, and likely more. But the feruchemist is suddenly left with a pissed off Inquistor and 1/3 of his charges depleted, so its a serious risk. That seems more in line with what we see in the books.

But can they use additional dice for extra nudges, spending 15 action dice for 10 dice +5 nudges, or is the most that can be drawn on a combat roll 10 and then all nudges come from the roll itself.

Either way, it makes it so that feruchemists will almost never have to budget defense dice-which is a little broken anyway...

[Skywalker]

Hm, I was thinking it was the former.  

Either works fine to be honest I thought the latter would be easier to explain and so I thought that should be the preferred option. However, I could see the former working too.

[Skywalker]

But can they use additional dice for extra nudges, spending 15 action dice for 10 dice +5 nudges, or is the most that can be drawn on a combat roll 10 and then all nudges come from the roll itself.

What is being contemplated is preventing extra dice added by Feruchemy adding Nudges using the normal 1 Nudge per dice over 10 dice rule. Instead, they buy them at the rate of 5 charges per Nudge. Essentially, applying the rule on page 281 universally.