Author Topic: Lets talk about Feruchemists  (Read 10639 times)

Aminar

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Re: Lets talk about Feruchemists
« Reply #45 on: December 21, 2011, 12:42:33 PM »
That makes me wonder about the 5 uses for a nudge bit...  I think that must have been the original intent.  I mean, Say I'm a feruchemist with 2 starting Physique.  I can spend 10 for two nudges or ten for 8 dice and 2 nudges.  What would you rather do?  That said, the same guy with 6 physique spending ten would get two nudges, or 4 dice and 1 nudge and 1 charge back, meaning despite his enhanced physical ability he gets less benefit for the same number of points, which seems off, so I would say no more than 10 points can be spent on Feruchemy dice...  Everything past that has to be spent at 5 per nudge.  So 30 points gets 10 dice and 4 nudges so the 2 Physique person gets 10 dice +6 nudges while the 6 Physique gets 10 dice +10 nudges(although that is still high, but they are physically as strong as possible, and expending alot.

Thoughts?

Skywalker

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Re: Lets talk about Feruchemists
« Reply #46 on: December 21, 2011, 12:47:06 PM »
That makes me wonder about the 5 uses for a nudge bit...  I think that must have been the original intent.

That is what most people suspected, if you look upthread a little.

Either way, Crafty have semi-confirmed above that it either wasn't the intent or at the very least it wasn't clear it was the intent. The issue now is less about the original intent and more about working out the best solution.

As to your solution, yes that is what is being suggested as the fix and the consensus on this thread seems to agree. :)
« Last Edit: December 21, 2011, 12:48:53 PM by Skywalker »

Leviathan

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Re: Lets talk about Feruchemists
« Reply #47 on: December 21, 2011, 03:38:05 PM »
So, is it this: A feruchemist with physique of 4 can use up to 10 charges to add 10 dice, bringing the dice pool to 10 with 4 nudges. Any further boost comes at 5 charges per nudge and 10 charges per point of outcome.

This one was my interpretation, largely because isn't that how an Allomancer burning Pewter works? (ie, Physique 4+8 pewter = 10 dice+2 nudges)

Toloran

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Re: Lets talk about Feruchemists
« Reply #48 on: December 21, 2011, 04:37:32 PM »
So, is it this: A feruchemist with physique of 4 can use up to 10 charges to add 10 dice, bringing the dice pool to 10 with 4 nudges. Any further boost comes at 5 charges per nudge and 10 charges per point of outcome.

This one was my interpretation, largely because isn't that how an Allomancer burning Pewter works? (ie, Physique 4+8 pewter = 10 dice+2 nudges)

That is the correct literal meaning but that isn't what was intended by the designers. Feruchemy works different simply because it's the only way to prevent you from getting absurd amounts of nudges.

Skywalker

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Re: Lets talk about Feruchemists
« Reply #49 on: December 21, 2011, 04:42:49 PM »
That is the correct literal meaning but that isn't what was intended by the designers. Feruchemy works different simply because it's the only way to prevent you from getting absurd amounts of nudges.

I am not sure you understood what Leviathan was saying.

As it stands, with Feruchemy, any extra dice above 10d become Nudges as normal, which is effectively tap 1 charge for 1 free Nudge. This creates a proble,

Crafty Games are considering changing the rules as written so that any free Nudges gained with Feruchemy cost 5 charges.

There seems to be two ways of doing this:

1. Say Feuchemists can use 10 charges to gain dice and thereafter spend charges on Nudges (5) or Outcome (10)

OR

2. Say Feruchemists can use charges to gain up to 10d and thereafter spend charges on Nudges (5) or Outcome (10)

Its a subtle difference to the same solution to fix the rules as written. Bill and Leviathan favour the first. I favour the last, but honestly I am happy with either as they fix the existing issue.

Aminar

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Re: Lets talk about Feruchemists
« Reply #50 on: December 21, 2011, 07:06:19 PM »
That is the correct literal meaning but that isn't what was intended by the designers. Feruchemy works different simply because it's the only way to prevent you from getting absurd amounts of nudges.

I am not sure you understood what Leviathan was saying.

As it stands, with Feruchemy, any extra dice above 10d become Nudges as normal, which is effectively tap 1 charge for 1 free Nudge. This creates a proble,

Crafty Games are considering changing the rules as written so that any free Nudges gained with Feruchemy cost 5 charges.

There seems to be two ways of doing this:

1. Say Feuchemists can use 10 charges to gain dice and thereafter spend charges on Nudges (5) or Outcome (10)

OR

2. Say Feruchemists can use charges to gain up to 10d and thereafter spend charges on Nudges (5) or Outcome (10)

Its a subtle difference to the same solution to fix the rules as written. Bill and Leviathan favour the first. I favour the last, but honestly I am happy with either as they fix the existing issue.

Option 2 just leads to some stat based rules tweaking, which would feel unpolished in a complete RPG(as I detailed earlier.)

Skywalker

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Re: Lets talk about Feruchemists
« Reply #51 on: December 21, 2011, 09:02:24 PM »
Yeah, that's fair comment. As said, either is good for me to be honest :)

ZetaStriker

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Re: Lets talk about Feruchemists
« Reply #52 on: December 27, 2011, 02:17:53 PM »
I prefer option 2 myself - I don't like the idea of nudges coming cheap and then suddenly ramping up in price. Feruchemy's bonuses working in a different manner than Allomancy bonuses just makes solid sense to me, and this system keeps Feruchemy strong and consistent in its rulings with augmenting attributes.

One thing I see looking at it though is that the +10 only really seems to be of use in Challenges and Contests where the degree of success matters. I toyed with the idea of using this to decrease an opponent's result by 1 before dice are rolled, meaning a Guard rolling 3 3 6 would count as having rolled 2 2 6 for that one beat, but even at the substantial cost of 50 charges a sure-hit seemed unbalanced. Nudges already do anything that a graded result might where Conflicts are concerned, so that didn't fit either. The only thing I can think it would be used for is as some sort of "super-Nudge"; flavor-based advantages that go beyond mortal abilities. As Pewter is what we're primarily discussing, in physical combat it might mean the difference between knocking someone out the window - as seen in the book's Lurcher example - and knocking them through the wall.

Aminar

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Re: Lets talk about Feruchemists
« Reply #53 on: December 27, 2011, 03:34:25 PM »
I just realized Option 1 is actually really nescessary...  Take a 6 Physique Feruchemist.
They can bump to their Pool to 10, and then spend 3 on nudges.  With a 10 pool they can probably succeed nearly every time, then use those three Nudges to catch a beat, essentially just pounding everything on the field until they fail.  That seems...  Excessively cheap at 7 charges a move to get a ton of free turns.(Unless I'm missing a rule.  Please tell me I'm missing a rule.)

Skywalker

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Re: Lets talk about Feruchemists
« Reply #54 on: December 27, 2011, 04:22:17 PM »
Having looked at this again, I think the simplest option is one given that many parts of the rules already talk about tapping 10 or more charges as being a seperately costed event. It would be easy to add you can spend up to 10 charges to add dice and thereafter the rules for Outcome, Nudges and Spectacular Feats apply.

ZetaStriker

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Re: Lets talk about Feruchemists
« Reply #55 on: December 27, 2011, 04:38:33 PM »
I thought you only get one pool of Attack Dice for a beat though, meaning you'll give up on defending or launch multiple, weaker attacks that way . . . right Aminar? That actually is one question I had, for that matter - how does Feruchemy affect beats in a Conflict? Normally you have a static pool, so you'd have to spend it before your turn . . . but then how do your extra beats apply? Do they "float" for either offense or defense as you see fit, or go to the first roll - meaning you have to take total defense to use them to mitigate Consequences.

Skywalker

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Re: Lets talk about Feruchemists
« Reply #56 on: December 27, 2011, 04:54:42 PM »
You would need to spend the Charges on each subsequent attack as the benefit applies to just one roll. This is explicit on page 280.

So you could tap charges to catch a beat, but at the very least on the next action you would need to tap charges again to get another catch a beat, each time loosing 3 damage. It's a costly tactic and that deals with Animar's concern.

As to whether Catch a Beat creates new Action Dice or uses the existing ones only is an interesting question that isn't clear for the text. The former causes an issue in how Action and Defence Dice are generated. The later seriously undermines Catch a Beat and makes it effectively just an advantage in being able to take an undeclared action.  

I think this goes in the errata thread. As it could be a greater issue with Pewter.
« Last Edit: December 27, 2011, 05:19:59 PM by Skywalker »

Aminar

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Re: Lets talk about Feruchemists
« Reply #57 on: December 27, 2011, 09:44:56 PM »
I know,but it does seem a little broken, although as you said Pewter is worse by far.  I think a limit to one Beat caught per action is kinds needed( or even removing nudges from caught beats altogether.  I know I will in my stuff for now.  Pewter Savants are just too good otherwise.

Skywalker

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Re: Lets talk about Feruchemists
« Reply #58 on: December 27, 2011, 09:54:14 PM »
I know,but it does seem a little broken, although as you said Pewter is worse by far.  I think a limit to one Beat caught per action is kinds needed( or even removing nudges from caught beats altogether.  I know I will in my stuff for now.  Pewter Savants are just too good otherwise.

Wait for the official answer as any additional Action Dice cause all kinds of issues with the Conflict economy, even with a 1 per turn limit. I actually suspect ZetaStriker may be right.

pherisWiel

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Re: Lets talk about Feruchemists
« Reply #59 on: December 29, 2011, 09:55:27 PM »
I'm afraid I don't understand all the concern.Pg 142 states
"DO I GET MORE DICE WHEN I “CATCH A BEAT”?
No. Catching a beat merely grants your character an additional opportunity
to do something — which is quite valuable in and of itself — but you still have
only as many dice as each action allows (as determined by the Narrator, like usual).
This becomes very important in a Conflict, when you have a limited number
of die to work with for everything your character does in each Beat (see page 135)."
Wouldn't this mean that you were limited to the number of dice given to you when declared? This would make infinite beat cycle impossible, as when the feruchemist declares his attack he/she would declare how much they would tap to support that and have to stick to that many despite catching beats.