Mistborn RPG Rules Questions

[Skywalker]

So is this how the rules work (leaving aside the narrator could say NO to using Charm dice against a physical attack)? Is there any penalty to Ignus if he fails his intimidate attempt? I guess not so he might as well do it!

You are still confusing me. 99% of the time, defence is done by Defence Dice. Steelpushing and Ironpulling allow a reactive roll to defend against metal ranged attacks. This is the only time reactions like this are allowed, so I wouldn't read it any wider.

Where you are probably getting confused is with the fact that if a person takes no action that requires dice, they reactively defend with an Attribute. However, to do this you are effectively forgoing an ability to act, so its hardly going to be an optimal strategy unless your only concern is defence.

As to how the person defends when they are taking no action that requires dice, the GM does have the final say. Sometimes the rules mandate a specific Attribute. However, if its cool and fit the narration I would totally allow it. Not being able to take any action that requires rolls is a significant dtriment already. So, yeah, I could see Charm being used to defend against a physical attack but it would be difficult to justify multiple defences using Charm.

[Skywalker]

So Ignus could either 'Actively Defend' and gain a pool of 3 dice (his physique) to defend against the attack

or

He could try to intimate Koel into giving up using his superior Charm (in this example I have chosen 5). This would mean he gets a free reaction of physique (3 dice as per the example in the book cos it is a steel attack against physique i.e. exactly the same as active defence) AND he could use 3 of his Charm dice action pool to defend against the attack leaving 2 for the attempt to intimidate.

All Actions are declared first. This forms the Action Dice pools. You then resolve the Actions.

So, in the example given above, Ignus could declare that he is trying to Intimidate Koel and use his Charm as his Action Dice. This may actually give him more Defence Dice (effectively exhibiting how an intimidating opponent might rattle an attacker) but that's cool. He's forgoing the chance to do physcial harm to Koel and instead doing mental or social harm.

If you are saying, that Ignus decides to change his declared action to a social attack, then he doesn't get to reform his Action Dice. He simply halves his current Action pool and drops to last the Resolution Order.

[mach1.9pants]

Ah so the 'it is a Steel vs Physique contest' is incorrect? It only becomes a reaction with non-defence dice used being as a defence in the specific cases of steelpushing and ironpulling?

That is something that really needs to be spelt out very obviously in that example of play. i have read it through 3 times and didn't 'get' it.

My example you just answered about Ignus was under the false assumption that the steelpush result would have to beat Ignus physique- no matter what Ignus gets to roll his physique as a reaction. All coming from the "This is a Contest of Cordal’s Steel against Koel’s Physique." on Pg 201. It is NOT a contest of Cordal's Steel vs Koel's Physique, it is a contest of Cordal's Steel against Koel's Defence Dice (whether that is 0 or 2+ dice is up to Koel).

This bit really needs to be cleaned up in the final.

[Skywalker]

Ah so the 'it is a Steel vs Physique contest' is incorrect? It only becomes a reaction with non-defence dice used being as a defence in the specific cases of steelpushing and ironpulling?

Yes IMO.

As noted in the other thread, there does appear to be an attempt to make a distinction with Ranged Attacks being a Contest, but this is not carried out elsewhere in the system. As such, I think the Defence Dice would apply unless the target wasn't taking an action requiring dice, in which case it would default to Physique.

The alternative is very messy, as you say. Oddly under Steel, the Steel v Physique contest refers to taking a metal object away from a someone. This makes more sense and it also doesn't inflict any damage, so a straight Contest is fine. But making Ranged Attacks a Contest like that seems to undermine how Conflicts are meant to run from my reading.

That is something that really needs to be spelt out very obviously in that example of play. i have read it through 3 times and didn't 'get' it.

Read the earlier example in the Conflict Chapter. I think it makes sense there.

[mach1.9pants]

I am bloody confused again though. I have jumped to p309 about steel and it once again says a steel push attack is a contest between steel and physique. Same for Iron. So WTF is right LOL? 

It seems that steel and iron work totally dif from all the rest which I don't like. Hittin some one with a spear bow or dagger is easier by far than using steel or iron, because the target has to use his action dice to defend whereas in  the case of iron/steel they don;t have to OR get a double bite of the cherry with the contest vs physique/steel/iron AND defnce dice.

And just to point out I think you made an error in your post on the errata thread which extended my confusion a bit:
"It says its a Steel v Physique contest which I don't think is incorrect." do you mean correct?

[Skywalker]

Are you referring to these lines?

Pushing an object held or worn by another character is a Contest between your Steel and the target’s Physique.

Pulling Objects in Bodies: Pushing metal objects in a body (such as piercings and Hemalurgic spikes) is exceedingly difficult, requiring a successful Contest of your Steel vs. your target’s Physique with an Outcome of 5 or greater. This is normally only possible if your Steel is boosted with Duralumin (see page 341) or you enjoy a Nicroburst (see page 349).

Neither of those are steelpush attacks. They are dealing with pushing objects held by another or in a body. These are correctly stated IMO and not inconsistent with a Steelpush attack being a Steel roll against Defence Dice targetting Health as normal.

Again, the earlier example on page 173 is correct IMO when it states that Cordal's Steelpush attack is:

Brandon (continuing with the first of the Bylerum Boys): “Cordal flings several coins at Koel, clearly planning to Steelpush. That’ll be Steel targeting Health...”

In other words, its a straight attack using Steel to form the Action Dice targetting Health and opposed by Defence Dice as normal.

[Skywalker]

And just to point out I think you made an error in your post on the errata thread which extended my confusion a bit:
"It says its a Steel v Physique contest which I don't think is incorrect." do you mean correct?

No incorrect.

IMO a Steelpush attack is treated like a normal attack. You form Action Dice with Steel and the taregt uses Defence Dice to defend.

[mach1.9pants]

Ah OK from my reading of that phrase it means that steel vs physique is not (I don't think) incorrect i.e. it is correct, a double negative.

However they contest vs physique is spelt out in the specific chapters of steel and iron, so I think it is what is intended. But to me I think it is wrong: with my highly experienced 'one reading of the rules with no game play' MAG knowledge!

It also seems to make coin shotting and pulling metal a very sub par choice, in combat . The best combat choice is go to pewter arm, a steelpush/ironpull  will hardly ever beat your pewter enhanced Physique! Which maybe be the desired outcome, I have not read the novels for a while and can't remember the specific performance of a thug vs a coinshot.

[Skywalker]

However they contest vs physique is spelt out in the specific chapters of steel and iron, so I think it is what is intended. But to me I think it is wrong: with my highly experienced 'one reading of the rules with no game play' MAG knowledge!

Can you point me to the references? I am only getting those two references I quoted, neither or which refer to steel push or iron pull attacks..

Remember that a Conflict is a series of rolls where you are trying to harm someone. For attack rolls like that, Defence Dice are used to resist being hurt.

Outside of a Conflict, where you may be opposing someone, such as using Iron to pull away a weapon, that's a Contest. Steel v Physique is correct.

It also seems to make coin shotting and pulling metal a very sub par choice, in combat . The best combat choice is go to pewter arm, a steelpush/ironpull  will hardly ever beat your pewter enhanced Physique! Which maybe be the desired outcome, I have not read the novels for a while and can't remember the specific performance of a thug vs a coinshot.

In combat, you aren't trying to beat their Physique with a steel push attack, just their Defence Dice. Sure a good Physique can mean more Defence Dice, but not necessarily. Once you add in the fact that steel and iron attacks are ranged and you can move faster and out of reach of Pewterarms easily with Steel and Iron, Pewter becomes a lot less attractive. It wins in a straight out fight, but you are nothing more than an armoured sitting target against a sniper.

IMO this mirrors the books exactly. Pewterarms are the master of combat and bloody scarry one on one. However, Steelpushing and Iron Pulling gets you out of their reach and raining down deadly metal in short order.

But yeah, this is one other reason why having ranged Attacks defended by a straight Attribute roll rather than Defence Dice would be bad idea.

[Skywalker]

Ah OK from my reading of that phrase it means that steel vs physique is not (I don't think) incorrect i.e. it is correct, a double negative.

You are right

[mach1.9pants]

You are correct I merged this
"A common use of Ironpulling is to attack with loose metal objects behind an
enemy. When you make such an attack, you roll with your Iron rating and apply
the other rules listed here:"
with the next paragraph:
"Pulling an object held or worn by another character is a Contest between
your Iron and the target’s Physique. Battling for a metal object with another Allomancer
is also a Contest, pitting your Iron vs. his or her Iron."
So I am mistaken. But I can see how I get confused when the contest is (incorrectly) mentioned in the combat example.

[Skywalker]

You are correct I merged this
"A common use of Ironpulling is to attack with loose metal objects behind an
enemy. When you make such an attack, you roll with your Iron rating and apply
the other rules listed here:"
with the next paragraph:
"Pulling an object held or worn by another character is a Contest between
your Iron and the target’s Physique. Battling for a metal object with another Allomancer
is also a Contest, pitting your Iron vs. his or her Iron."
So I am mistaken. But I can see how I get confused when the contest is (incorrectly) mentioned in the combat example.

Yeah, the example needs fixing ASAP to fit the earlier example on page 173.

[Toloran]

Since I don't feel like making a separate thread for my question:

When using brass/zinc to manipulate someone's emotions, does it take a full beat to do or is it in addition to your normal action for a beat? The reason I am asking is because the bonus to your charm/influence rolls against the subject require that you continue to concentrate on them and keep burning the metal. If the beat length is, say, an hour or so that could be quite hard to keep the metal burning the entire time so you can get the bonus on your next beat (and thus take advantage of the bonus).

[Skywalker]

Since I don't feel like making a separate thread for my question:

When using brass/zinc to manipulate someone's emotions, does it take a full beat to do or is it in addition to your normal action for a beat? The reason I am asking is because the bonus to your charm/influence rolls against the subject require that you continue to concentrate on them and keep burning the metal. If the beat length is, say, an hour or so that could be quite hard to keep the metal burning the entire time so you can get the bonus on your next beat (and thus take advantage of the bonus).

To be honest, I don't think there is a rules answer to that given how fuzzy beats are. I would just make a call on how much Brass/Zinc would be burned given the narration and go with that.

[Baijo Gosum]

I could be wrong here, but the text in the previous Chapter on Conflicts which covers the same conflict seems to be correct. The example in the Physical Combat Chapter is wrong.

Brandon (continuing with the first of the Bylerum Boys): “Cordal flings several coins at Koel, clearly planning to Steelpush. That’ll be Steel targeting Health...”

Becky: “I also Steelpush Cordal’s coins, away from me.”
Brandon: “No problem. That’s your Steel vs. his attack then, but while Cordal’s targeting your Health you’re reacting with a defense. What else would you like to do?”
Becky: “I get to do more?”
Brandon: “Countering the Steelpush is a reaction. You’re still due your action for the round.”

Cordal Bylerum is using Steel to Push coins at Koel. His Steel is 6 and he has no applicable Traits. The coins are necessary for the action, so they don’t count as Tools (without them the action simply isn’t possible), and Brandon rules that no other Circumstances apply either (Cordal being surprised is covered by the adjusted order in which everyone declared actions). Cordal has 6 Action Dice.

Koel is reacting to Cordal’s Steelpush and then Pushing on her own. The reaction is ignored when gathering Action Dice, so Brandon focuses on her action. She has Steel 4 with no help from Traits or Tools, and she doesn’t benefit from Circumstances either. Koel has 4 Action Dice.

Cordal’s Steelpush is also a Contest, in this case against Koel’s Steel. There’s no Difficulty here — the coins are definitely going somewhere; all that’s in question is where they wind up.

Koel’s attack is a Contest as well (her Steel against the guard’s Physique), but in her case there is a Difficulty as the coins are being shot blind and through the wall. Brandon had originally planned to assign a Difficulty of 4 but since Koel is burning Tin he reduces it to 3.

I couldn't tell if this had been resolved lol, so I figured I would chime in.

I was planning on settling this as a contest with in the conflict.  Cordal gets a dice pool biased on his action, Koel gets on biased on hers.  These determine order of actions.  When it comes time for Cordal to attack Koel we "step out of conflict" and now have a contest of steal v. steal.  If Cordal wins he makes his attack and Koel must now use defense dice.  If Keol wins the coins fly away from her per the rules for redirecting metal objects under the steal allomancy rules.  If Koel had the reflect ranged attack stunt she could spend two nudges rolled in the contest to send the attack twords another target.

I would probably count the distraction of the pushing contest as a negative circumstance for her further actions.

I'm still not sure if Cordal should get to react to Koels push and try and try to counter with his own.  Maybe this is another example of the advantage of higher wits, you get more opportunities to react in useful ways.