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Author Topic: Rules question: Feruchemical Steel  (Read 183 times)
Kadrok
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« Reply #15 on: July 28, 2014, 08:58:56 PM »

Thankyou Grammar Gargoyle.

I should say that my suggestion was serious. It seems (I must confess I've skimmed or skipped some of these posts) that we've been limiting our thinking to speed's ability to enhance an attack that is one strike, when Steel lends itself better to an attack that is several small strikes. It came to me when I was thinking about Karate and how I always get steamrolled by sensei because I focus on one powerful strike at a time, and he bruises me to death with dozens of lightning quick blows coming at me from everywhere and oh gosh make the hurting stop!

Kurk, I don't see the point in talking any more on this subject. I've made my case, you've made yours, and it's for Crafty to decide. I think this is another case like where you and I were discussing aging and feruchemical gold; you don't understand the underlying principle well enough, and you're arguing on a faulty premise. I'm clearly never going to convince you, and you're clearly never going to convince me, we'll just both think that we're right and the other person is being unreasonable.
Outis/Mac, before you close up shop, can I ask what you think of my suggestion of a speed enhanced machine gun flurry of quick blows?
« Last Edit: July 28, 2014, 09:00:53 PM by Kadrok » Logged
Kurkistan_
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« Reply #16 on: July 28, 2014, 09:03:48 PM »

Kurk, I don't see the point in talking any more on this subject. I've made my case, you've made yours, and it's for Crafty to decide. I think this is another case like where you and I were discussing aging and feruchemical gold; you don't understand the underlying principle well enough, and you're arguing on a faulty premise. I'm clearly never going to convince you, and you're clearly never going to convince me, we'll just both think that we're right and the other person is being unreasonable.

Fair enough, though I must say I take a tad of offense (forgive me if your intent was to jest here) when you unilaterally declare the fault is that I "don't understand the underlying principle well enough". One (or both) of us is likely wrong to some degree, but it's rather rude to just assert that, as a matter of simple fact, it's just the other guy.
« Last Edit: July 28, 2014, 09:29:56 PM by Kurkistan_ » Logged
Gargoyle
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« Reply #17 on: July 28, 2014, 10:17:44 PM »

Thankyou Grammar Gargoyle.
Aaaand...
You forgot the space.
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Outis
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« Reply #18 on: July 28, 2014, 10:50:08 PM »

Aaaand...
You forgot the space.

I love you, Gargoyle.
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lord Claincy Ffnord
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« Reply #19 on: July 29, 2014, 06:07:50 AM »

I'll add my thoughts to the discussion, though I feel that together Outis, Kurkistan and Kadrok have said most of the important things that there is to say.

I am here to say that I think you are both wrong...and that you are both right. You could say that I am sitting on the fence, but that implies that I can't decide which of you is right, where actually I just think that the answer is somewhere in between. Smiley

Regarding Kads suggestion. I am not going to say that I think this is/should necessarily be the case, but someone could argue that the flurry of blows is already specifically catered for in the rules, we call it catching a beat. Smiley So rather than stack steel for nudges for extra damage on a single attack, you stack them for catching beats and do the additional damage that way, simulating taking multiple attacks. *shrug*, I can see arguments for and against that, but I just figured it should be mentioned

I think that you could get more benefit from it than Outis says, though not as much as Kurk says. To my mind tapping for extra dice and outcome makes sense without difficulty as it is basically about moving faster than your opponent can block it. The flurry of blows is more debatable as unless you are flailing wildly or repeatedly attacking the same general area there needs to be a moment of "thought" between each attack and that limits the flurry of blows. They tend to be either only a  pretty small number of attacks, or a higher number of largely ineffectual attacks.

There are other good points that both of you have made that I won't rehash. I'm sure someone with actual combat experience/knowledge might be able to say more but I certainly can't claim to that knowledge. Tongue

If I had to make a semi-arbitrary call right now to keep a campaign moving. I would probably rule something like:
Tapping up to +3 (or maybe +4) outcome has no detrimental effects, but beyond that I might say that it was +1 self damage per outcome increase. (Cos you would have to be moving really fast by that point and I am not convinced that you could do so and attack effectively without risking injury. I think I would rule that you take 1 point of damage for every 2 steel nudges you spend on damage. If you buy them and use them to catch a beat that's fine, if you use them on damage I would say that that is generally using direct speed for hitting harder and has the expected backlash from doing so.

Now that might seem a little extreme for penalty for damage nudges, and a little light for outcome. (Really depending on your personal views on steel) but I'm also trying to consider some semblance of balance.
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Kadrok
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« Reply #20 on: July 29, 2014, 06:47:03 AM »

Naawww... I was sure Claincy was going to agree with me... Sad

Regarding Kads suggestion. I am not going to say that I think this is/should necessarily be the case, but someone could argue that the flurry of blows is already specifically catered for in the rules, we call it catching a beat. Smiley So rather than stack steel for nudges for extra damage on a single attack, you stack them for catching beats and do the additional damage that way, simulating taking multiple attacks. *shrug*, I can see arguments for and against that, but I just figured it should be mentioned.
I thought of that and dismissed it, especially if we're keeping with the house rule that you can only catch one beat a turn... two strikes isn't much of a flurry, is it? Even if we didn't, and someone could catch a bunch of beats in a row, we're talking a lot of investment per strike which goes against the whole point of the move: using the energy you would have done to make one epic blow to make several small strikes in different locations (reducing the impact and making the attack actually feel like something you'd do with FSteel, as compared to FPewter). I would argue the flurry would be far more appropriate as one "attack" than as several chained together.
I'm sure someone with actual combat experience/knowledge might be able to say more but I certainly can't claim to that knowledge. Tongue
Hehehe, does this count?
It came to me when I was thinking about Karate and how I always get steamrolled by sensei because I focus on one powerful strike at a time, and he bruises me to death with dozens of lightning quick blows coming at me from everywhere and oh gosh make the hurting stop!
Actually, speaking of Karate, you know what I get told most often when I'm being corrected? Stop thinking. Stop thinking and relax. And it totally works, I find I spar and run the patterns a lot better on the rare occasions when I can shut my over active brain up and just react on instinct. In my mind this diminishes the need for FZinc and times of "thought" between attack, which is why I also disagree with this:
The flurry of blows is more debatable as unless you are flailing wildly or repeatedly attacking the same general area there needs to be a moment of "thought" between each attack and that limits the flurry of blows.
I don't know how to explain it, but my experience of watching and talking to people far better than me at Karate, and of trying to become someone better at Karate is that it... sort of... flows. If you suck like me you have to think between your moves... if you can just "let it flow" this is not an issue. This being the case, I disagree with the conclusion you make, having considered this, that there tend to be only a small number of attacks or largely ineffectual ones. I think someone using Steel properly would be able to make their flurry of attacks flow without having to stop to think.
(Not to mention Kurk's point that the speed of your strikes actually gives you more time to think because your blow can more easily make the openings or whatever).

I seem to remember Mac/Outis mentioning a Martial Arts background; my Atium is forewarning his return to this topic.
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Outis
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« Reply #21 on: July 29, 2014, 11:20:50 AM »


I seem to remember Mac/Outis mentioning a Martial Arts background; my Atium is forewarning his return to this topic.

You got some bad Atium.
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Herowannabe
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« Reply #22 on: July 29, 2014, 03:08:14 PM »

My 2 clips:

(first off, like Kadrok, I confess that I have skimmed over parts of this thread, so my apologies if I missed something critical)

To me, it seems like Kurkistan is describing situations where heaps of Steel charges are being used on movement (or in game terms: taking steps in and out of range) and only a handful of dice on the attack itself. On the other hand, it seems like Outis is fopcused on situations where dozens of steel charges are being spent on a single attack. So I, like Claincy, fall somewhere in the middle.

Also, Kadrok, sorry but I don't see your situation as being any less gentle on the feruchemist than Outis's. If a dozen small jabs in a split second does the same amount of damage to your opponent as one massively-quick attack, then those dozen small jabs are going to be just as jarring to your hand as one massive attack would. It's kinda like putting your hand under a jackhammer for a few seconds versus high-fiving a bus that's driving past at 100km/h (look at that, I put my units in metric, just for you Kad. Wink) Both situations are going not going to turn out well for your hand.

Anyway, the main thing I wanted to say is this: I like Outis's rule of thumb- every ten charges of steel tapped for an attack deals 1 damage to the feruchemist. I would also add that the feruchemist could spend nudges to reduce the damage he takes- this simulates a bit better the situations that Kurkistan and Kadrok have been describing, where the extra speed is being used to line up the shots, but you're not going at full speed when delivering your blows.

so, for example: Stefen the Steel Feruchemist is attacking Zeon, because Zeon just rubs him the wrong way. Stefen really wants to take Zeon out in one blow, so he taps 50 charges of Steel for +10 nudges (or whatever combination of dice/outcome/nudges suits you best).

NARRATOR: That's 50 charges of Steel, so you'll take 5 damage from your own attack.

SITUATION 1: STEFEN: That's fine, I really hate that guy. I'll gladly shatter every bone in my body to get rid of him once and for all! All 10 nudges towards damage!

SITUATION 2: STEFEN: He really bugs me, but not enough to warrant breaking my own arm over it. I'll spend 5 nudges towards damage and 5 nudges towards reducing the damage to myself.


Mostly I like Outis's suggestion because it's simple, easy to remember and to implement, and accurate enough to be "realistic."
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Outis
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« Reply #23 on: July 29, 2014, 04:30:55 PM »

I'm being misrepresented. I don't want to wade back into this debate, but please, if anyone wishes to start quoting me or putting more arguments at my feet, please read the things I've actually said before you begin talking about which point you think I'm trying to make.
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lord Claincy Ffnord
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« Reply #24 on: Today at 07:47:18 AM »

I thought of that and dismissed it, especially if we're keeping with the house rule that you can only catch one beat a turn... two strikes isn't much of a flurry, is it? Even if we didn't, and someone could catch a bunch of beats in a row, we're talking a lot of investment per strike which goes against the whole point of the move: using the energy you would have done to make one epic blow to make several small strikes in different locations (reducing the impact and making the attack actually feel like something you'd do with FSteel, as compared to FPewter). I would argue the flurry would be far more appropriate as one "attack" than as several chained together.
I like to examine both sides of an issue, and so I figured that point should be raised, whether or not I think it is wholly correct.

(I did see you mention Karate experience.)
There was a reason I put thought in quotation marks. Let's put it this way, if you are acting by instinct or rote you aren't actively thinking, but there is still some degree of subconscious thought involved. I would argue that your "instincts" or pattern memory still has more to do with mental speed than physical and will still act as a limiting factor when moving at high speeds.

Now while I don't have actual combat experience, I do have experience with both responding on instinct and learning sequences and patterns to perform them without thinking. Essentially the same mechanics with different application. For example when trumpet playing I learned to play sequences and pieces far faster than I could consciously process what I was doing, like memorizing kata's then repeating them with fsteel as you are suggesting, I do get it, but it is worth noting that it takes time and training to memorize a sequence like that and there is still a mental component in performing it. I guess we could argue till the cows come home about whether muscle memory is covered by fSteel or fZinc, but personally I think it is a bit of both and without fZinc you are going to be experiencing diminishing returns by tapping more steel as your subconscious brain simply cannot keep up.

"Flow" is acting on instinct, basically letting your subconcious brain make the decisions faster than you could consciously consider the options. The way I see it that is still very much determined by mental speed, unless we were saying that fZinc only effects the speed of conscious thought. Put this way using fSteel allows you to minimize the time spent actually acting and make the best use of your mental speed, but you will still be limited to some degree by the mental component. Your limbs are not acting on their own, but at the instruction of your brain and I don't know how much fSteel can effect this.

By that logic mounting an effective flurry of blows at the speeds you are talking about would, at the very least, require the character to be an expert with whatever weapon/s they were using, just like attempting the same in normal time.

Sorry that was kind of disjointed and rambly, I think I might be tired Tongue
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