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Author Topic: Looking for input on a couple costs and mechanics.  (Read 998 times)
Sletchman
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« on: December 10, 2011, 11:47:30 AM »

I'm curious what the board things would be a suitable cost and mechanics for the following origin abilities:

Glamour: Fey style, looking for something beyond the basic +1 Appearance.  Something that captures the feel that everything the viewer see's is actually part of the effect.  Almost certainly dies in an anti-magic environment.  In some ways it's a semi-perfect camouflage with an archilles heel, just not sure how to model and cost it.

Non-persistant origin abilities: Discount for things that aren't "always on"?  Things like partial / full transformations (shifters?), retractible natural attacks, or only-in-stance benefits.  Any discount there?

Life drain:  Mechanically I'm thinking of basically Triumphant Swing, but as a grapple advantage (and not based on melee combat feats).  Possibly a bit more though - perhaps it could remove a grade of fatigued (or other things related to "vital essence" or "life"), but that'd up it's cost (possibly considerably), thoughts?

Gaze attack: There's one in desert clutch, and from the offsets it looks a little more then the Drake breath weapon, but I'm not sure how much more (and it's mechanics are pretty much exactly what I want).

Poison: Like gaze attack, it's in feats, just no race to cost it out from.  Not sure how lethal I want this yet, but it'll be tied to a natural attack directly.

Damage resistance: X pts per Y?  Would type matter?  So many things I want in core races are in feats, but they seem to be less rigid then origins with their 7pt packs.

Size alteration:  Magical/mystical in nature, the ability to grow significantly when necessary (like a Spriggan in cornish mythology).  Should the change increase HP?  If yes, it brings a whole host of complexity.  If no, why not (apart form simplicity and game balance)?

And also a Magic Item ability:

Perminant spell effects:  Simple enough - magic items that cause the wearer / weilder / user to have the spell effect be active, always.  The way I see it, make it Enduring spells only, and there shouldn't be any balance/flavour problems (from the eyeball check).  Just not sure on the Rep cost - X / Spell level and Charm, I think - but what "X"?


Sorry about the long and rambling post - it's kind of stream of thought there, but hopefully it makes enough sense and some of you guys will have ideas on costs or mechanics.
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Soulcatcher
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« Reply #1 on: December 10, 2011, 01:05:35 PM »

As to why a size increase might not increase wound points, maybe it doesn't alter the amount of mass but just stretches it out.
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« Reply #2 on: December 11, 2011, 06:39:28 AM »

As to why a size increase might not increase wound points, maybe it doesn't alter the amount of mass but just stretches it out.

Sounds reasonable to me.  I am wondering how that effect will work in Spellbound though, should be interesting.

No thoughts on the other gear?
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Khaalis
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« Reply #3 on: December 16, 2011, 02:58:23 AM »

Ok, here are a few opinion thoughts and rough ideas from someone still learning the system myself.


Glamour: I'm pretty not sure this is exactly what you are looking for but to me the standard Fey Glamour is all about style. For this type of fey species ability I'd go with the following on top of the standard Appearance bonus.

a) "You are considered to have 2 additional Style feats for any ability based on the number of Style feats you have."
- This really only effects 3 feats - Personal Lieutenant and Repartee Basics/Mastery. Thus I'd cost it low at 0.5 value.

b) "You gain 1 temporary Style feat that lasts until the end of the adventure. However, this feat can be negated by Counter Magic, True Seeing and Anti-Magic Field."
- I'd cost this out at a value of 1.


Non-Persistent Origin Abilities: Personally, I would be very wary of this line of thought. For instance the "retractable claws" I would still consider Claw I because they can still be used at will. The only ways I would chance that are ..
a) Being retractable is actually a benefit, granting an automatically Stashed weapon, which should increase the cost, not lower it.
b) I would only lower the cost of a standard Claw I to a 0.5 value if there was a decent restriction on the use of the claws, such as only when using a specific Stance, or even something like a 1/day limit.

I wouldn't do Transmogrification via a species option, but via a species feat and grant the feat. This is what I've done with a few shapeshifters in my homebrew, but the mechanics will likely change once Spellbound finally drops.


Life Drain: Not sure where to go with this. The simplest answer is just give them the extra trick. The hard answer would be to make this a supernatural extraordinary attack.

Life Squeeze: You gain a life draining Squeeze I extraordinary supernatural attack (1d10/20; DC 10; Life Draining I)
Build Value = Natural Attack values are 1/2 the NPC XP value
* Squeeze I (2XP) + Life Draining I (3 XP) + Supernatural to trigger off Squeeze (2XP)
Build Value = 3.5


Gaze Attack: This is likely most easily done as conversion from NPC attacks, if as I think, you meant Rock Clutch's Gaze. If we try to build that through normal rules...
* Stress Gaze: Standard Ranged Extraordinary Damaging Attack II (2d6/19-20; REF DC 10 for 1/2 damage) @ 4 XP + Gaze Attack @ 3 XP = 7 XP or 3.5 Value. I also think that changing from Lethal to Stress damage increases the cost by probably another 1-1.5 value for 4.5 to 5 total.

Then the rest of the package applies a -2.5 value adjustment making it a total of a 2-2.5 point feat.
* -1 value for the -2 DEX penalty
* -1.5 value for Reviled -10 penalty


Poison: Another conversion from NPC attacks. Itís a standard Natural Attack at 2XP per grade + 2XP for Venomous. Thus a standard Venomous Claw I would be 4XP or 2 built point value. If you wanted to do more, it transfers to an Extraordinary attack. For example...
Ghoul Touch:
* Damaging Extraordinary Attack I (1d6/20) @ 2XP
* Venomous (transmits poison) @ 2XP
* Paralyzing (Will DC 10 or paralyzed for 1d6 rounds) @ 4 XP
Total Value = 8 XP = 4 build points


Damage Resistance: I'd go off the one we know which is Stress Resistance. This is a value of 1 for Stress Resistance 4. Sterner Stuff (-4 to Keen) is also 1 point, so I would think it safe to say that any X Resistance 4 = 1 point.


Size Alteration: As with transformation, I would grant this via a species feat granted as a bonus feat. Again, I'd probably wait for Spellbound to see how they handle this effect.

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Sletchman
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« Reply #4 on: December 16, 2011, 09:48:24 AM »

Glamour: I'm pretty not sure this is exactly what you are looking for but to me the standard Fey Glamour is all about style. For this type of fey species ability I'd go with the following on top of the standard Appearance bonus.

I was looking more towards people who view them and get asked for a description having the following:
Witness: "They were really beautiful."
Investigator: "Was it a male or female?"
Witness: "Umm, it was an..."
Investigator: "Were they tall or short?"
Witness: "Uh..."

Something like complete befuddlement of the senses - your senses just get overwritten magically, and you can't identify any real features of the creature beyond them being "very attractive".  Mechanically I'm thinking it'd be harder to recall details about the target (perhaps an error range boost), as well as a pseudo-disguise, but not into a specific person - just into not yourself.  I have no idea how to even start actually modelling the effect in game terms though.  The simple solution is to just boost appearance, and maybe give something like style expert, but I think altering the base type might be a better route.

Something like Beguiling and a Disposition boost ("Something so beautiful can't possibly mean me harm") - but that only works in areas where magic works, might be a good start though.

Quote
Non-Persistent Origin Abilities: Personally, I would be very wary of this line of thought. For instance the "retractable claws" I would still consider Claw I because they can still be used at will.

Seems like a reasonable line of thinking.  At this stage I'm looking at no change for positives qualities (if they are effectively at will) and a reduction on negative qualities (being Light Sensitive only at night for example isn't worth anywhere near the full negative value, imo).

Quote
I wouldn't do Transmogrification via a species option, but via a species feat and grant the feat. This is what I've done with a few shapeshifters in my homebrew, but the mechanics will likely change once Spellbound finally drops.

Yeah, the delay on Spellbound is absolutely murdering my game plan.  The game was supposed to start a month ago, and that book is kinda essential for several core themes of the game.  Needless to say, not amused.  Size Alteration and Transformation will be easy with a baseline to work from, but with zero point of refence it's a bit frustrating.

Quote
Life Drain: Not sure where to go with this. The simplest answer is just give them the extra trick. The hard answer would be to make this a supernatural extraordinary attack.

Good thinking, I guess it comes down to how powerful I want it to be - a supernatural attack will have more juice then the baseline trick (but the trick may be easier to fit into a 7pt origin, at a 1pt cost).  I really like your life squeeze attack though, so I guess I'll have to figure out exactly what I want in the rest of the Origin.

Quote
Gaze Attack: This is likely most easily done as conversion from NPC attacks, if as I think, you meant Rock Clutch's Gaze. If we try to build that through normal rules...
* Stress Gaze: Standard Ranged Extraordinary Damaging Attack II (2d6/19-20; REF DC 10 for 1/2 damage) @ 4 XP + Gaze Attack @ 3 XP = 7 XP or 3.5 Value. I also think that changing from Lethal to Stress damage increases the cost by probably another 1-1.5 value for 4.5 to 5 total.

Then the rest of the package applies a -2.5 value adjustment making it a total of a 2-2.5 point feat.
* -1 value for the -2 DEX penalty
* -1.5 value for Reviled -10 penalty

Yeah, I sort of figured the feat was worth 2-2.5 points (most species feats seem to be), and since the negatives on it are about -2 pts (I see Reviled at -1 on the wiki) that the attack itself is about 4-4.5 pts.  A fair bit more then a breath weapon, but also a fair bit more useful then a breath weapon too.

Quote
Poison: Another conversion from NPC attacks. Itís a standard Natural Attack at 2XP per grade + 2XP for Venomous. Thus a standard Venomous Claw I would be 4XP or 2 built point value. If you wanted to do more, it transfers to an Extraordinary attack. For example...

Yeah, I was looking at standard Venomous - nothing extraodinary or supernatural, though those are good ideas.

Quote
Damage Resistance: I'd go off the one we know which is Stress Resistance. This is a value of 1 for Stress Resistance 4. Sterner Stuff (-4 to Keen) is also 1 point, so I would think it safe to say that any X Resistance 4 = 1 point.

Sounds good to me (though it'd have to be higher for common types - Lethal Resistance would be super valuable, far more then 1pt worth).  I was looking at stuff like Cold, Heat and Fire - so that shouldn't be a problem at 1pt for Resistance 4.

Quote
Size Alteration: As with transformation, I would grant this via a species feat granted as a bonus feat. Again, I'd probably wait for Spellbound to see how they handle this effect.

Yeah, I was originally waiting for Spellbound to make my races (this campaign is having entirely new races, from scratch - the Tolkien based races in the core book are fine and all, but I'm looking to do something different) but the delays are just too much, and I want to get some solid work on the campaign actually finished while I have some spare time.

Cheers for the reply - after about a week of nothing I'd basically given up, but I've got some good ideas to chew on from you too (modeling effects on NPC attacks and such).  Sorry if there's any weird typo's - my reply window started to get squirrely on me (maybe my post is too long?).
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« Reply #5 on: December 16, 2011, 10:54:50 AM »

a) "You are considered to have 2 additional Style feats for any ability based on the number of Style feats you have."
- This really only effects 3 feats - Personal Lieutenant and Repartee Basics/Mastery. Thus I'd cost it low at 0.5 value.

It's Feat Tree Expert, which is one point. Which is a bargain since Soulmate is 1 point and does less then Style Tree Expert.
« Last Edit: December 16, 2011, 10:56:51 AM by Krensky » Logged

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« Reply #6 on: December 16, 2011, 11:31:16 AM »

Seems like a reasonable line of thinking.  At this stage I'm looking at no change for positives qualities (if they are effectively at will) and a reduction on negative qualities (being Light Sensitive only at night for example isn't worth anywhere near the full negative value, imo).

Be careful about this one.  Outdoors, Light Sensitive generally only works at night already.

Light Sensitive only kicks in when you enter a more brightly lit area (see the ambient light table on 218).  An orc or goblin can spend all day in a desert sun already and only ever suffer the effects of Light Sensitive first thing in the morning.
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« Reply #7 on: December 16, 2011, 02:40:32 PM »

Seems like a reasonable line of thinking.  At this stage I'm looking at no change for positives qualities (if they are effectively at will) and a reduction on negative qualities (being Light Sensitive only at night for example isn't worth anywhere near the full negative value, imo).

Be careful about this one.  Outdoors, Light Sensitive generally only works at night already.

Light Sensitive only kicks in when you enter a more brightly lit area (see the ambient light table on 218).  An orc or goblin can spend all day in a desert sun already and only ever suffer the effects of Light Sensitive first thing in the morning.

That was actually a totally random example, and not something I was actually considering (it was the first negative quality I thought of).  A different example is Reviled that applies to specific races only (using standard FC races, if the Orcs were only Reviled by the Elves - for example).  Something of that nature is more likely to be actually used, too.  Or Burden of Ages that only took effect outside of certain areas / in certain areas (likely linked to a campaign quality like Cyclical Magic or Wild Magic).

EDIT: Also, considering Light Sensitive's low cost (-0.5) any reduction would be a little bit pointless - there's no other qualities with fractions low enough to shore up the gap to a whole number, so you may as well either make it full cost, or 0.  In hindsight, it was a terrible example all round (and that's what I get for going with the first thing to come to mind).
« Last Edit: December 16, 2011, 02:44:47 PM by Sletchman » Logged
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« Reply #8 on: December 17, 2011, 01:19:25 AM »

Most of the existing examples seem to cost resistance at 1 point per resistance 4, so as long as you stick to cold, heat, stress, electricity, and acid, you're probably okay. However, I can't get Angelic and Devilish Heritage to behave under that scheme.
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« Reply #9 on: December 17, 2011, 04:31:16 AM »

Most of the existing examples seem to cost resistance at 1 point per resistance 4, so as long as you stick to cold, heat, stress, electricity, and acid, you're probably okay. However, I can't get Angelic and Devilish Heritage to behave under that scheme.

Reverse engineering Species Feats has been a little bit of a headache for me.  Unlike origins there doesn't seem to be any "Each feat gives X pts of abilities" ruling.  Try as I might, some of them just don't conform to the others properly.
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« Reply #10 on: January 06, 2012, 04:40:38 AM »

Reverse engineering Species Feats has been a little bit of a headache for me.  Unlike origins there doesn't seem to be any "Each feat gives X pts of abilities" ruling.  Try as I might, some of them just don't conform to the others properly.

They were written in multiple waves, by multiple people, with multiple scales. They're not going to match up perfectly.
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