Buyable Spellpoints

[Bhurano]

Hi folks,

since we had to abandon our self-made campaign setting - mostly due to my training, our jobs, etc. - we thought to convert The Dark Eye. It's really easy to convert - just whipping up some aligments and paths for the religions and for the spellcasters. The only thing which is slightly more powerful than given in the system is the magic system... but then again... so are each and any class out of FC.

Since a buddy has the books I read through some of the stuff and stumbled upon an interesting thing I had forgotten. Casters in The Dark Eye have the ability to achieve more Spell points than usual. It is - roughly translated - a ritual known as "Great Meditation". Each ritual gives some spell points.

I think applying it as a campaign quality would be the best way to go... potentially including a feat to unlock the "Great Meditation" and each additional spell point should be bought per Reputation.

So the question is: How much reputation should a spell point cost? This is something I am totally not qualified for to make up... it wouldn't end well.

So, any ideas or opinions on this one?

[Krensky]

Does the ritual raise the caster's maximum spell points, or just give him some more to use that may exceed his normal maximum?

If it's the former, it's just a non-tangible Prize with the Bonus Spellpoint charm. 8 Rep a SP.

If they're just a one time bonus... Hmm... I'd say the same price, but it's not a Prize.

EDIT: Had to wait for my books to load.

[paddyfool]

The only thing which is slightly more powerful than given in the system is the magic system... but then again... so are each and any class out of FC.

In what way is the standard FC casting more powerful, and have you considered trying some of the sorcery campaign property's subcategories (e.g. Wild Magic, Difficult Magic, Lost Magic etc.) to tone it down, or tried homebrewing something similar?  I'm pretty sure you could fairly easily come up with a campaign property for the "player must memorise and correctly recite an incantation for each spell" rule which Wikipedia describes, for instance.

[LordKruelos]

Make a spellcasting feat allowing you to spent X skill points on increasing spell point pool instead at leveling up?

[Bhurano]

@Krensky

The ritual raises the maximum Spell points. So it might feasible to treat it as a prize - but treating it as a prize seems odd to me , even if it is covered by the rules. It would also - in the long run - pose a problem for the wizards who like to craft their own magical items. Several low level spell trinkets are not uncommon in the hands of some wizards - depending upon the magical academy they are coming from.

@LordKruelos

Very interesting idea. In that case I would twist it eventually to use the Wisdom modifier - which would be in the spirit of the games ritual. So if you buy it once you get your WIS mod. as extra spell points.

Maybe something like this:

Great Meditation (Spellcasting Feat)
Prerequiste: Needs to be a full caster (no half casters with a 1 SP progression)
Benefit: You obtain additional spell points in height of your WIS Mod.
Special: Can be obtained as many times as you wish, but one in game year should progress before buying it another time.

If that seems to much or overpowered, let me know. Why would you use skill points?

@paddyfool

Puh, ok that one will be a bit longer.

The "problem" in the case of the dark eye is, that in their aventuria setting magic a is bit limited. Most spells would end at level 3, other go up to spell level 9. I will try to pin it down a bit better. Be warned, loads of information follow!!!

Magic in Aventuria:
- There several different "professions" of casters. You have the classic wizards, who are organized as white, grey and black wizards guilds. There are also guildless wizards - which translates as walking trouble for different reasons. You have elven spell weavers, witches, druids, geods (I hope I got that one right, because I translate from the german version ) and reptilian crystalomants (ah crap... I got that most definitely translated wrong. ) a. k. a. as the reptiles who play with magic crystals. There are roughly 1 caster in 150 people (4th edition), which amounts to roughly 20.000 casters of all traditions and roughly 20.000 elves where everyone can cast.

- White wizards obey the authorities and do what they are ordered to do. Grey wizards tend to ask questions, but avoid some answers. Black magicians are limited only by their own morale and do what they want. To give an example the Codex Albyricus describes what a wizard has to wear, which weapons are allowed and so on. The White Guild obeys it to the letter. The Grey Guild obeys it, but breaks it if they can get away with it - but they won't break the important rules. The Black Guilds laughs and do what they want. If you are caught for breaking the codex as a black wizard your guild will punish you for stupidity and laugh their asses of. As an aside their are some spells going around which where translated from a forbidden representation to the wizard representation of magic by the black wizards. Despite that you can get these spells far easier as a white wizard than an black wizard, who will have a hard time proving himself to get these spells.

- Wizards are not allowed to wear arms and armor. Some wizard will be allowed to pack a surcoat and a sword. The rest has robes and staffs. Also iron inhibits magic to some extent.

- Combat spells are just plain crap - mostly. You try to kill something with magic you are screwed! If you want to hurt somebody with magic you better be prepared to pay 1 point of astral energy for each life point. Ridiculous and something they didn't fix with the transition from the third to the fourth edition. If you read through the fluff part of the magic academy it just gets worse - and I like the combat magicians despite this. Also casting takes up quite some time. Casting an Ignifaxius (basically a lance of fire) takes up to 1 1/2 rounds. One of the best spells Ignisphaero (a fireball) cost some hit points to cast and takes up to 3 1/2 rounds to cast. So a combat magician can dish out damage, but not that much.

- Illusion spells are quite good and damn scary. You can dish out a world of hurt with them. Basically you need just the "Auris Nasus Oculus" and can form up to full sensual illusion even bigger than a damn house - depending upon your skill with it. Not to mention spells to hit you harder or making up illiusional barriers (a bit of mind and illusion magic at work)

- Healing spells suffer the same fate as combat spells. You are just to easy used up. Remember 1 life point equals 1 astral point. Since there is a wound system in place most healers go for the wounds (broken bones, cracked ribs and skulls etc.) and after the biggest damage is healed they use their worldly skills to heal their buddys or some healing potions (not the good alchemical stuff)

- Mind spells are a big thing in the system. Sure they can be resisted, but most beings stand no chance against a good educated wizard. Another wizard on the other hand can and most likely will screw up your day. It speaks volumes that only one black academy is geared toward combat and even then in a more subtle way.

- Spells that can modify their surroundings are quite good in the system. Most of them come at a reasonable price. Especially a spell to change the weather conditions is bad news for most beings. It gets better and better with time and juicing it up with more skill points. It is costly but very scary.

- Summoning creatures is considered dangerous but easily enough feasible. Elementals are outright immune against weapons as are demons. If you have the true name of a demon class (think about them as unlimited in supply, but alike in appearance) you can use them far easier. Demon summoning is mostly looked upon with suspicion or outright hatred. You can even strike a pact with an archdemon to gain more influence within his domain... if somebody finds out... bad news for you... somebody will try to use you as a grill lighter ... especially the praios priests (they don't like magic).

- Invisibility is no illusion... it makes you just invisible... without your equipment.. the better version of the spell is presumably lost. Shapechanging is possible - but only in animals. You can also temporarily someone to stone or turn them into another creature (even permanent).

- Alchemical concoctions are not necessarily magic, but some are. They tend to have a wide variety of effects... but don't expect fireball handgrenades - at least not to often. The creation of magical items costs usually permanent astral energy... which can be bought back.

- Casters of all kinds use astral energy to power their spells, which tends to come back slowly. On the other hand, they use no mage pouches like mages in FC - with the exception of the crystalswining reptiles. They need to use words and gestures... but not necessarily (look below).

- Another strength every caster has at his disposal are spontaneous modifications of spells. Wizards have it easier as the others because their modifications cost only half as much. Adding Range? Why not. Just to hand out some perspective a fireball has a maximum range of 49 meters/160.7 feet but modded with range you can go for horizon range - as far as you can see. Splitting your lance of fire to hit two targets? Hell, yeah. Extending the duration of a spell? Easy. Sure the difficulty can go up fast, but most mage go for specialist anyway. Spreading your points everywhere is just plain suicide.

- There are also rituals which can be thrown upon some special items. Too much to list up. Just some things that take the cake and ran away with it. Hammer of the Magus allows your squishy wizard to dish out the hurt. It does no direct damage to living beings... but then again your clothes or armor hand the force of the magically enhanced attack to you if you want or not. So broken rips, shattered skulls are no problems... not to mention the fact that you are hurled through the air. The wizards play baseball with unruly trouble seeking idiots... as balls. Another ritual allows the wizard to bind spells into his staff... quite many spells. It is in fact one of the few things to make a good combat mage... stuff him up on the defensive and offense side with spells. Bind some good spells in your staff and dish out the hurt as a magic warrior on the frontline protected by your spells (preferable are armor granting spells and strength enhancing spells). If you are going for all out attack... just dish out the hurt. After a short burst of action the wizard has probably nothing left in him... but the opposition runs for the hills - if they are capable.

To conclude: The whole system knows around 300 spells. You have a limited source of energy, which replenishs quite slow - quite a bit faster with some special abilities (some can only be gained at character creation, and the rest during game). On the other hand there are dozen of utility spells, which make your life easier. The rest of the magic system seems schizophrenic -> A fireball is insanely costly, without being that effective - in relation to it's price. On the other hand you are totally capable of unleashing a tornado, creating a maelstrom on water, change the weather in general, animate the dead or summoning a torrent of demons for reasonable costs. And if combat uses of illusions - which are mostly on the cheap side - would be applied, the poor buggers would run for the hills.

The creators have also no idea of warfare and some other decisions they have made over the years. What is truly a thorn in my side when I glance at that DSA is that their is no plan how magic affects warfare. Heck, even a druid can ruin an army, and they are not as bad as a true wizard. Dominate some wolves or talk to them and send them harrassing loners. Summon a tornado, turn the freaking nature into kill mode and even a big army will break up... without ever seeing the druid. It gets worse with creative mages. Building golems - some come as mobile siege engines, who can and will bring down city walls with their hands/claws - is bad enough, but add in elementals, the walking dead and freaking demons and things go downhill fast. I would integrate at least wizards who protect against these things. Even worse nobody thinks about the mind spells in general. They just run around and seem to think that no one would pull it of to manipulate the higher-ups.
The meta plot therefore has some quite glaring holes - one of the worst is the attack on gareth. Two magical academys - one going for antimagic and the other for combat - and both were more or less absent as the city got attacked by an flying demonic fortress and an undead dragon. Even better the undead dragon - a scourge of all things living and damn brilliant - suicided by flying/walking into a city which was surrounded by an anti-magic field per divine intervention. The icing on the cake: He knew of the Arcanum Interdictum - it was no secret and is a big thing the priesthood of praios likes to show off with.

Ok, I end my rant and info dump. Don't get me wrong I love the setting despite it's logic holes - it is after all the first RPG I ever participated in.

[paddyfool]

Hmm... a lot to consider there.  A few things you could do:

- Homebrew conversions of classes for which there's no equivalent as yet (crystalmancers, geomancers etc.) 
- Homebrew conversions of spells
- Slower regen of spell points
- Specific nerfing of blasty spells and healing spells (difficult spells wouldn't be quite enough... maybe raise the level of every spell in a couple of specific schools by one, to make them harder to get hold of and weaker for their level than those of other schools)
- Altered versions of summoning spells, where the summoned critters become much more durable, but lose some other capacity to keep them balanced.
- Cheap access to spell conversion feats, and maybe homebrewing some extra ones.
- Schools of magic could be a first level feat, which grants bonuses in return for requiring certain rules (the no armour one, for instance).  Also, I'm pretty sure there have been attempts to replicate the "no armour for casters" rules as campaign properties before somewhere on license to improvise.

Did I miss anything?

[Bhurano]

- Crystalmancers and geomancers could be filled by a mage. The crystalmancer would use a mage pouch (his crystals). I think that would be ok. The geomancer - do they call "geoden" that in the translation? - is effectively a severely restricted caster in several areas. So no metal, mostly elemental magic... chaneller/conjuror seems ok. Most casters in the system go for versatility in their spells, than pure specialization. An fire elementalist would be capable of conjuring walls of fire, summoning elementals and going nuts with fireballs - not to speak of his utility spells. So mage seems fitting for most classes. I am in general reluctant to create new classes (but will do so with an idea that stomps through my mind, now and then) -> especially with spellbound on the horizon.

- Conversion of spells... I wouldn't do that for now... I have the impression that this wouldn't end well.

- Slower regeneration of spell points might work. Possible regeneration of a day, but as an offset you can in the long run - per "Greater Meditation" run around with more spell points. So any caster would have to manage his output a bit. Might be workable and in the spirit of the setting. Even a system where you regenerate even slower might manageable.

- I like the magic system in FC. It is nice and easy and has a structure - without bordering on insanity. I wouldn't nerf some spells to get closer to the setting - that would sacrifice to much.

- An alternative for summoning spells would be to rebuild the summoning spells and make them terrifying by using them as Special Characters - it would fit perfectly. The xp to build the beasts would need to be upped a bit eventually. Also a clash of wills should be applied to summoning elementals and demons. if you fail you have a problem (at least with demons) . Have to think about that.

- Define cheap access to spell conversion feats, please. I could imagine that a wizard starts with some - depending upon his education - and that possible the cost are reduced for the wizard tradition like in the source material - might even be possible to apply one conversion without cost. Elven spells would have other advantages and so on.

- I don't grasp your last point entirely. At least I think so. Do you think along the line of a trickster who gains the ability to use illusions and takes a feat for it to specialize on that part? As an example he could choose to cast illusion spells without concentration or use a spells which is actually 1 level higher.

- On the part of the more iron, less magic thing I would apply a campaign quality. It's quick easy and anybody knows how it works.

Ehmm... I think you didn't miss anything.

[paddyfool]

- I don't grasp your last point entirely. At least I think so. Do you think along the line of a trickster who gains the ability to use illusions and takes a feat for it to specialize on that part?  As an example he could choose to cast illusion spells without concentration or use a spells which is actually 1 level higher.

I was thinking more along the lines of new feats like the following:

Guild mage
Requires: 1+ ranks in spellcasting.
You may only take this feat once.  When you take it, you receive the following benefits and penalties:
White mage: [blah]
Grey mage: [blah]
Black mage: [blah]

[Bhurano]

Sorry for the late reply,

thanks for the help. We are currently using the Setting of Dark Eye - with a decent amount of changes to the system.

@paddyfool
You got me wrong there - or more likely I phrased it not good enough. The guilds in TDE bear no advantage other than political clout, certain rights like that you can only be trialed before a council of wizards guild and most importantly the philosophical views of their members. Think of white mages as scholastic and black mages as scientists. One does only what that clergy approves of, the other just give a damn.

During the last weeks we actually tried to use the whole system to see what changed with the update to 4.1. It's still a mess and all the bad features are still in place. A buddy of mine has problems with english due to his reading and writing disability (don't know how its called in english ) and he said basically: "I'm outta here, I want FC!"

So we decided to bring in some changes to the setting and use FC as is. The system is damn fine as it is and it is easier to change the setting than otherwise around.

Thanks for the help