Skills

[ss2020]

I have and both skills are written Identical, except for the passive and active part.
    You see according to the skills I can detect anything with my notice check that you can with a search check. There is NO distinction. I can see keys under the pillow just as well as your search can.
  I am not trying to be a pain here, but I think the rules should be written so a newbie can figure them out. If you don't have the background in using these skills there is no difference.     
    My group and I have played many systems and some times we take for granted the meanings of rules and that they are the same as another game. Then we find out later they are not. We wanted to make sure we played FC the way it was meant to be. Pure! Then we can add house rules if needed.
  Sorry again if anyone is getting miffed at me.

[VisualStatic]

This is why time and time again its been said the FC is a tool kit.  Use what you want.

But you are right, the only difference is that Notice is a passive GM rolled skilled vs Search is an Active PC rolled skill, they both do the same thing.

Anything beyond that is up to the GM to decide how to handle it and when. 

If you feel a character can walk into an office and passively know the keys are in the 3rd drawer of the desk, then use notice.

[ss2020]

Okay, great. Thanks.
    I know sometimes, No! A lot of times, I miss things and the Crafty community is great and sets me straight.

  I am glad I am not missing anything here.

Thanks Everyone for your patience.

[Krensky]

I said the description of the skill, not the defined check.

Notice specifically says unconsciously noticing something without looking for it.

[Gentry]

And that unconscious passive use is why it's dangerous to load up Notice and skimp on Search. You only get a Notice check when the GM decides you get one. If you ask, you're suddenly making an active decision, and Search is the name of your game. It probably sounds a little pedantic, and you can certainly tweak it the way you want for your group and enjoyment, but the Passive nature of Notice means if the GM decides you don't notice, you don't notice, no matter how many ranks you've got in the skill. The wise GM would refrain from being a regular douche about it, but ultimately the call can be made that way if he's got something he's decided cannot be perceived until it wants to be.

[Krensky]

Well, you can prompt a Notice check by asking open ended, non-specific question like "Do I see anything unusual?" or such, but you only ever get one if the GM decideds you do as opposed to when you want to make it.

Honestly, I've never seen new players get confused by this. It's mostly players who are used to SC2.0s 'skills only do what their checks say they do' thing.

[Bill Whitmore]

This is an interesting discussion as my players thought along similar lines, but in practice it doesn't quite work out that way during play.

Don't get me wrong, Notice can be awesome, but it is not without its own problems.

Notice is going to be something that is hard to make using a "Cooperative" check, so a group full of people will almost always be using a "Team Check" with Notice.  At that point, having 5 people with +10 Notice isn't any more helpful than having 1.

Then, if that check is failed, what are you going to do?  Stand around for 10 minutes and hope the GM asks for another Notice roll?

What if the key (which you aren't really looking for, because that would be Search) is in the office desk, 3rd drawer in the back?  Would making a free Notice roll be appropriate just because someone looks through the door into the office?  Most GMs I know would say no.*

The problem with the passive skills is that they are passive skills.  You don't have any choice when, and even if, the skill roll will be made.  Some of my players are wishing that they had a little more control over when they can apply their skills.

[tfwfh]

I think maybe it might be better to phrase things thus:

Notice rolls are generally prompted by some external action or event beyond the player's control.  On the other hand, Search rolls are the result of a conscious decision on the part of the player/character.
So, by way of example:

• hearing the bandits as they approach your watch post in the night would be notice
• spotting the sigil of a rival lord on their gear as you fight them would also be notice
• Finding the letter sent by that lord ordering them to kill you when you go through their pockets after the fight would require a search check
• looking for their path to follow back to their camp would also be search.

[Mister Andersen]

This comes back to the desire of many over the years to roll Notice and Search into a single Awareness skill -- and absolutely not at double the cost, either. The only drawback is you need to remove or replace a second skill in order to keep an even number of skills for purposes of skill pairings.

A redesign of the Attribute/Skill system also posits a single Awareness skill, with detailed examination rolled into a function of Investigate

[SilvercatMoonpaw]

I dunno, I personally feel like Searching is actually something you can be good at doing separate from Noticing from personal experience.

Possibly rather than combining them each needs more different things to do.

[Psion]

A house rule I use is to make notice better (lower DC) to observe things that are changing/moving and search better for things that are static. Otherwise I allow them for similar sorts of checks (the active / passive distinction still applies).

[LordKruelos]

The Notice/Search Active/Passive split has come up at my table before, and I've gone with the following interpretation for ease of use*

Notice is about situational awareness -- the footsteps behind you, the car tailing you, or a faint lingering smell.

Search is active and focused, uncovering things that are hidden, or trying to estimate how many guards are stationed on the walls.

*In my game, I tend to let players handle most rolls interacting w/ a PC's abilities, even for passive skills, because it makes them happier to roll more dice and takes something off my plate. For a happy medium, I'll sometimes ask everyone to roll a die before the session starts and write down their results. Untold (but figured out by at least one of my players) these results becomes a character's first secret Notice check result for a session.

[spinningdice]

I tend towards a similar divide though I go with a hands on/hands off approach.
Notice: There's a scent in the air, a drawer left slightly open or a faint noise.
Search: Feeling along the wall for imperfections, rummaging through drawers, patting someone down.

Research would tend to come under Search or Investigate, depending on if it's library based or questioning based.