Spells and Spell Casting

[ss2020]

  Ran into a situation where the party was delving with a glow spell and an evil creature had Darkness II from the Darkness Path.

  There was some disagreement: The darkness spell says it stops ambient and non magical light but since the glow spell is magical the darkness would not work.
  My thought is that the glow spell makes the PC glow and the light is just a consequence and thus the light itself is non-magical.

  Anyone have any thoughts or clarifications on this?

[Krensky]

Do whatever makes the scene more interesting.

[Bill Whitmore]

For a rules reference see pages 112 and 113 along with the Spell listings:

"A countered spell’s effect and Duration end. If this occurs during the Spellcasting check, the spell is still considered to have been cast but its effect and Duration end before they begin."

"Darkness (opposes Light)"

"Light (opposes Darkness)"

"When two opposing spells occupy the same Area, the spell with the lower Casting Level + Spell Level is countered. When these values are equal, both spells are countered."

DARKNESS II
Level: 3 Shadow (Darkness)

GLOW I
Level: 0 Energy (Light)

Whether or not Darkness II would negate the light coming from Glow I is immaterial as there is no light from Glow I as it is countered* and ceases to exist as soon as it comes in contact with Darkness II.  If they had a non-spell based magical light source, it may continue to function within the confines of the Darkness.

Edit: I am assuming here that the NPCs Threat Level, and thus casting level, is the same as the PCs.

[ss2020]

Not sure why light opposes darkness. Darkness is just an area where there is not light. It is usually used metaphorically with good and evil but the reverse of the metaphor is hardly accurate.
 

[Pedantic]

Not sure why light opposes darkness. Darkness is just an area where there is not light. It is usually used metaphorically with good and evil but the reverse of the metaphor is hardly accurate.
 

Think magic, not physics. Darkness is not the absence of light, but a force in its own right.

[ss2020]

For a rules reference see pages 112 and 113 along with the Spell listings:

"A countered spell’s effect and Duration end. If this occurs during the Spellcasting check, the spell is still considered to have been cast but its effect and Duration end before they begin."

  Okay after reading 112, the light from the TL3 NPC would counter the 1st level mage/2nd level character spell.
  I also think since the spell's levels are balanced power wise, a 3rd level spell is more powerful then a 1st level spell so that should be a factor also. Maybe I will house rule that the combined total of the spell level and caster level determines the strength.

Thanks.

[ss2020]

Not sure why light opposes darkness. Darkness is just an area where there is not light. It is usually used metaphorically with good and evil but the reverse of the metaphor is hardly accurate.
 

Think magic, not physics. Darkness is not the absence of light, but a force in its own right.

Sorry, my players tell me the same thing. It is just the way I think.
   But read the glow spell it is werde, it does not create light it makes the player glow and thus creating light. But the darkness spell radiates darkness. Why would they write it that way? I can't fathom it.

[Goodlun]

Not sure why light opposes darkness. Darkness is just an area where there is not light. It is usually used metaphorically with good and evil but the reverse of the metaphor is hardly accurate.
 

Think magic, not physics. Darkness is not the absence of light, but a force in its own right.

Sorry, my players tell me the same thing. It is just the way I think.
   But read the glow spell it is werde, it does not create light it makes the player glow and thus creating light. But the darkness spell radiates darkness. Why would they write it that way? I can't fathom it.

Your over thinking this a lot.  consider the light from glow to be magical light as it is the simplest interpretation.
When charting your course through this that first and for most it is a game it is suppose to be fun and thus everything doesn't need too much thought put into them just relax some and enjoy it.

[SilvercatMoonpaw]

If it helps you could think of magical darkness as "anti-light", similar to how there is anti-matter.  The higher the level of the darkness magic effect the more anti-light it gives off and the more light it annihilates.

[Bill Whitmore]

If you want to change the way the spells work for your game, by all means go ahead.

Under the rules as written, Light and Darkness oppose each other, Glow I (Light) has an area of effect of a 60 foot sphere, Darkness II (Darkness) has an area of effect of a 60ft sphere, and when opposing spells (like Light and Darkness) occupy the same area one or more of them gets countered.

Keep in mind that the darkness from a spell is not just the absence of light, but a sight sucking machine that prevents even darkvision II, which is completely independent of needing light from working.  There is dark, then there is Dark.  There is the blackness of space, then there is the hole in space from which no light can ever escape.  Darkness from a magical effect doesn't just negate sources of light, it hunts down light and utterly destroys it in all of its form anywhere it can find it.

  Okay after reading 112, the light from the TL3 NPC would counter the 1st level mage/2nd level character spell.

Assuming they both cast spells of equal level (such as Glow II vs Darkness II both being level 3), correct.  But if following the original scenario of Glow I (level 0) vs Darkness II (level 3), the Darkness II would win out regardless of who cast which in this case.

  I also think since the spell's levels are balanced power wise, a 3rd level spell is more powerful then a 1st level spell so that should be a factor also. Maybe I will house rule that the combined total of the spell level and caster level determines the strength.

No reason to house rule it, it is already the rules as written.

"When two opposing spells occupy the same Area, the spell with the lower Casting Level + Spell Level is countered. When these values are equal, both spells are countered."

If a PC Mage 1/Whatever 2 somehow casts Darkness II and TL 3 Wizard casts Glow I, the PC's spell will counter the NPCs Glow I.  (PC Caster Level 1 + Spell Level 3 > NPC Caster Level 3 + Spell Level 0).

If a PC Mage 1/Whatever 3 somehow casts Darkness II and TL 4 Wizard casts Glow I, both spells will be countered.  (PC Caster Level 1 + Spell Level 3 = NPC Caster Level 4 + Spell Level 0).

and

If a PC Mage 1/Whatever 4 somehow casts Darkness II and TL 5 Wizard casts Glow I, the NPC's spell will counter the PCs Darkness II.  (PC Caster Level 1 + Spell Level 3 < NPC Caster Level 5 + Spell Level 0).

[ss2020]

Cool thanks. Yah, I guess we are over thinking it. I and one other guy have some science/engineering background so we do go overboard a bit. Much to the other player's chagrin.
That was LOL Funny too, I want to see all those dark hunters annihilating the light guys.

[Pedantic]

Cool thanks. Yah, I guess we are over thinking it. I and one other guy have some science/engineering background so we do go overboard a bit. Much to the other player's chagrin.
That was LOL Funny too, I want to see all those dark hunters annihilating the light guys.

Time to start coming up with alternate fictional particles! Particles that are AT WAR!

[MilitiaJim]

It is all fun and games until the mages split the thaum, the smallest unit of power in thaumaturgy, and eliminate creation...

[Coyote0273]

It is all fun and games until the mages split the thaum, the smallest unit of power in thaumaturgy, and eliminate creation...

We'll just remake it, better, faster, stronger!

[Morgenstern]

It is all fun and games until the mages split the thaum, the smallest unit of power in thaumaturgy, and eliminate creation...

We'll just remake it, better, faster, stronger!

How do you think Fantasycraft came into being? Many 3.X thaums were split in the making of this system .