New Skill Uses

[Jake]

JMHO.

Well argued, I concede.

[Khaalis]

To paddyfool:
Thanks for the comments and suggestions. With that, here is another round to try and correct issues.


TRICKS
KIP UP {v2}
Reposition Trick (Acrobatics 1+ ranks): The character can get back on their feet faster than most. Once per round when the character is prone, the character may make an Acrobatics check (DC 15) to make a Reposition action to standing as a Free Action rather than a Half Action.

FEIGN DEATH {v2}
Ready Action (Bluff 1+ ranks): The character can play dead, gaining an edge over their foe. Once per combat, the character may make a Bluff check (DC 15) to make a Ready action where the character falls prone but appears to others as if sprawled and helpless. If the character attacks someone who thinks they are helpless, the target becomes shaken.



LEAPING CHARGE
On Leaping Charge, considering that you can’t apply a Trick to a Trick, that leaves two options.
1)   Make Leaping Charge an independent Trick that could be used instead of the Charge trick. The issue here is that it basically makes it an Improved Charge trick, making the basic Charge trick useless (or at least highly less valuable).
2)   Make Leaping Charge a feat. The issue here is that to make a Trick into a Feat, we have to make it more valuable.
Of the two, I have to lean towards another feat.

 LEAPING CHARGE
     You spring into the air adding additional momentum to your charge attack.
     Prerequisites: Charging Basics, Acrobatics 1+ ranks
     Benefit:

Some ideas :
1) When using the Charge trick, your free attacks inflict 4 more damage and gain an additional +1 threat range.

2) When using the Charge trick, your free attacks inflict 1d6 additional damage.

3) When using the Charge trick, you may accept a penalty with your attack and skill checks of up to -5 to gain an insight bonus with melee damage rolls equal to double that number until the start of your next Initiative count.

4) When using the Charge trick, you inflict double damage when attacking with your charge’s free attacks.


Thoughts?

[Krensky]

The skill requirements are meaningless. If a player untrained in the skill eants to try them, they should get the attempt.

Kip up needs a downside, like leaving you sprawled on failure. I also dislike static dcs on general principle because the become irrelevant to fast, but nothing better comes to mind.

Feign death should be opposed by sense motive and deal 1d6 points of stress.

[paddyfool]

The skill requirements are meaningless. If a player untrained in the skill eants to try them, they should get the attempt.

Kip up needs a downside, like leaving you sprawled on failure. I also dislike static dcs on general principle because the become irrelevant to fast, but nothing better comes to mind.

Feign death should be opposed by sense motive and deal 1d6 points of stress.

This.

As for Leaping Charge... you could still do it as a trick, just one that makes your free attack a little more risky and limited:

Death from Above! Run Trick (requires charging Basics feat): Is it a bird?  Is it a plane?  No... it's a lunatic with a greataxe.  During a run action, you may make a free melee attack against a single opponent at the end of your move.  Your error range on this attack increases by 3, damage by 1d6 and threat range by 1.

(This would make it work for fliers as well as jumpers... otherwise, I'd be tempted to make it require a jump check vs your opponent's defense in addition to the to hit roll, and maybe lower that error rate).

[Krensky]

Since Jump pisa more about distance and height, use Acrobatics which covers flight.

[Khaalis]

The skill requirements are meaningless. If a player untrained in the skill [wants] to try them, they should get the attempt.

I apologize if I am misunderstanding your intention with this statement but it sounds as if you’re categorically saying that skill requirements are meaningless. I have to disagree with this.

It could be interpreted that basically any requirements for Trick use don’t matter, and thus it could then be argued that all existing trick requirements can be ignored as well. Your statement could basically be switched to say: “The Forte requirements are meaningless. If a player untrained in the Forte wants to try them, they should get the attempt.” IMHO that’s a bad precedent to set.

The point here was to create a new requirement that expands tricks outside of weapon proficiency (forte) and ability score requirements, and to allow the creation of tricks available only to those trained in a specific skill. Basically to grant an additional possible benefit that sets users of that skill apart from those who don’t have training in the skill. The idea is that an acrobatic fighter should have a different potential bag of tricks than a fighter with no acrobatic training (more than just the ability to tumble better). As it stands, of the 67 non-feat granted tricks in Core and Companion, 50 (75%) have a requirement. This argues that a trick requirement mechanic is valid.

In specific, IMHO I just don’t see anyone being able to attempt a Kip Up without some training. Anyone with martial arts experience is a good example as they know how hard it is to attempt even with training.

However, I can see the argument for Feign Death being a trick anyone could attempt.

I also dislike static dcs on general principle because [they] become irrelevant to fast, but nothing better comes to mind.

I don’t see a particular problem with this. As a skill Trick, I particularly see the trick being harder to accomplish at lower levels and easier to accomplish at higher levels of skill. Perhaps the DC should be set higher? Even at 1st level a DC 15 is not difficult to achieve for someone trained in the skill. I do agree however that there is no other alternative to a flat DC for this particular trick.

KIP UP {v3}
Reposition Trick (Acrobatics 1+ ranks): The character can get back on their feet faster than most. Once per round when the character is prone, the character may make an Acrobatics check (DC 20) to make a Reposition action to standing as a Free Action rather than a Half Action. With a failed check, the character becomes sprawled.

Feign death should be opposed by sense motive and deal 1d6 points of stress.

FEIGN DEATH {v3}
Ready Action: The character can play dead, gaining an edge over their foe. Once per combat, the character may make a Bluff check as part of a Ready action. With success against an observer’s Sense Motive, the character falls prone but appears to the observer as if sprawled and helpless. If the character attacks someone who thinks they are helpless, the target takes 1d6 points of stress damage.

“Death from Above! Run Trick (requires charging Basics feat): Is it a bird?  Is it a plane?  No... it's a lunatic with a greataxe.  During a run action, you may make a free melee attack against a single opponent at the end of your move.  Your error range on this attack increases by 3, damage by 1d6 and threat range by 1.”
“Since Jump [is] more about distance and height, use Acrobatics which covers flight.”

Personally, I like it without the skill check, the error range penalty is IMHO sufficient. Especially since I can’t find any other trick that requires 2 rolls to achieve the results, and none that substitute a different roll for an attack roll.

The following wording allows it to be an alternative to the standard Charge trick (basically a 2nd trick option for the Charge Basics feat), and at the same time allows it to benefit from the rest of the Charge feat tree.

LEAPING CHARGE {v2}
Run Trick (Charging Basics): You may make 1 free attack at the end of your movement against an adjacent target (rather than at any point during the move and ignoring adjacency). This counts as a Charge. This free attack’s error range increases by 3, damage increases by 1d6 and threat range increases by 1. You may use this ability a number of times per combat equal to your starting action dice.


Thoughts?

[Sletchman]

With your current draft the skill requirement is unnecessary.  With a DC of 20 you can't get above a 15 without 1+ ranks anyway - so unless you boosted the skill requirement to a higher number of ranks there's no difference between 1+ rank and >DC15.

For the record, I'm not against alternate requirements for tricks, including skill based ones, just thought I'd point it out - in this instance it makes the trick a little cleaner.

EDIT: Also, I like what you've done here, for what that's worth - I can see including them in future games.

[Bill Whitmore]

For Kip Up you may be able to take a page from Tumble and set the DC to something like 15 + 5 per adjacent adversary.  Popping up quickly is a lot harder if half a dozen guys are trying to beat the shit out of you.

[Khaalis]

With your current draft the skill requirement is unnecessary.  With a DC of 20 you can't get above a 15 without 1+ ranks anyway - so unless you boosted the skill requirement to a higher number of ranks there's no difference between 1+ rank and >DC15.

For the record, I'm not against alternate requirements for tricks, including skill based ones, just thought I'd point it out - in this instance it makes the trick a little cleaner.

Sorry, but I’m not quite understanding your meaning here.

The requirement doesn’t really have anything to do with the odds of success, but a restriction of who can and can’t take the trick. If anything it makes it more clear and concise that it is not meant for anyone untrained in Acrobatics. Some people might just glance at the trick and take it (if there was no requirement) and then after-the-fact realize that an untrained skill check can’t succeed (less experienced players may not realize the 15 max cap on untrained right away).

Even if the DC were lowered back to 15, it would be rather silly to take the trick if you weren’t trained in Acrobatics anyway, as you’d always have to max your check (only ever having a 30% chance of success before any Dex mod bonus). Additionally, if I really wanted the trick to be available to untrained users (which I was really trying to avoid) I would change the requirement to “DEX 13+” but that would give anyone the ability to Kip Up with a minimum 30% chance of success which again I wasn’t aiming for.

However, with the “1+ Ranks” requirement it makes it clear and obvious that this is a skill trick only for those trained in Acrobatics.  So I really don’t see the requirement as unnecessary. In fact I see it as doing its intended job of restricting it to trained users, without leaving it to an analytic examination by players to realize that they can’t take the trick if they are untrained in Acrobatics. They shouldn’t have to pour over it and do the math to realize… “Hey, I can’t make that DC with an untrained skill check”.

Does that make sense or am I missing something obvious?

EDIT: Also, I like what you've done here, for what that's worth - I can see including them in future games.

Thanks, I am trying. 

For Kip Up you may be able to take a page from Tumble and set the DC to something like 15 + 5 per adjacent adversary.  Popping up quickly is a lot harder if half a dozen guys are trying to beat the shit out of you.

That’s a really good point. I had originally thought about this, but was torn. I wasn’t sure if duplicating the same mechanic as Tumble would go over well. In effect, this basically makes Kip Up a Tumble Trick. However, overall, I think it’s the best option so…

KIP UP {v4}
Reposition Trick (Acrobatics 1+ ranks): The character can get back on their feet faster than most. Once per round when the character is prone, the character may make an Acrobatics check to make a Reposition action to standing as a Free Action rather than a Half Action. Their DC is 15 + 5 per enemy adjacent to them. With a failed check, the character becomes sprawled.

[Krensky]

Personally, I still think determining and kip up are Athletics since they're more about strength to weight the flexibility and balance, but to each their own.

[Sletchman]

Does that make sense or am I missing something obvious?

I get what you're saying.  My point was mostly that I personally will see DC20 and go "ok, needs 1 or more ranks in Acrobatics" instantly - no need to be told that I need 1+ ranks.  Might just be that since I've played Spycraft and FantasyCraft since their respective releases result caps are basically second nature to me?

I actually like the newest version the most - DC15 +5 per adjacent adversary.  With that, I'd certainly keep the requirement in.  A part of me feels like there should be a larger penalty (to avoid "bugger it, it's free, I'll give it a go") - like if you fail you're sprawled and lose your next half action.  Otherwise they can just reposition from sprawled to standing as their next half action (normal speed) and ignore the downside.  Of course I also subscribe to the other school of thought that it cost you a trick, so should offer a tangible benefit (in this case, a free action, pass or fail).

[Bill Whitmore]

What about offering skill tricks in a similar manner as skill focuses as used by Crafting and Ride.  Every 4 ranks in a skill allows you to pick one skill trick pertaining to that skill.

Of course, to really make full use of it you'd need about a half dozen tricks for each skill, but it would be interesting to add as a campaign quality...a big campaign quality with about 120 new tricks to cover 20 skills...

[Sletchman]

That is a fantastic idea, I really like it.  I'd only hesitate to do Ride and Craft (their "tricks" are focuses), or at least not to heaps for them.

Also, damn you - now I'll be thinking about it all night.

[Khaalis]

I get what you're saying.  My point was mostly that I personally will see DC20 and go "ok, needs 1 or more ranks in Acrobatics" instantly - no need to be told that I need 1+ ranks.  Might just be that since I've played Spycraft and FantasyCraft since their respective releases result caps are basically second nature to me?

I do have to say I think that has a lot to do with it. To someone new to the system, the what I call "little rules" like the Max DC 15 cap on untrained skills is something a lot of people miss. I know when we first went over the system we missed it. It wasn't until I got into the detailed reading of the system that I found it. Most of my players are coming from standard d20, and thus used to just making an untrained check without bonuses. Having a success cap is a new concept.

I actually like the newest version the most - DC15 +5 per adjacent adversary.  With that, I'd certainly keep the requirement in.  A part of me feels like there should be a larger penalty (to avoid "bugger it, it's free, I'll give it a go") - like if you fail you're sprawled and lose your next half action.  Otherwise they can just reposition from sprawled to standing as their next half action (normal speed) and ignore the downside.  Of course I also subscribe to the other school of thought that it cost you a trick, so should offer a tangible benefit (in this case, a free action, pass or fail).

I can see both sides of the argument, but as you say... a) it costs you a trick which can be a precious resource, and b) sprawled is already a pretty nasty penalty. Additionally, assuming the character does just reposition, they are still out half an action, which I think is a fair cost.

What about offering skill tricks in a similar manner as skill focuses as used by Crafting and Ride.  Every 4 ranks in a skill allows you to pick one skill trick pertaining to that skill.

Of course, to really make full use of it you'd need about a half dozen tricks for each skill, but it would be interesting to add as a campaign quality...a big campaign quality with about 120 new tricks to cover 20 skills...

Its an interesting concept but I doubt you it would be possible to come up with more that many skill tricks especially since some skills wouldn't necessarily lend themselves to tricks well. Additionally, it would yet another resource given to PC's and could cause some serious balance issues since tricks are a pretty rare resource currently with the exception of a few classes that specialize in them.

However, I could Really see Spellcasting gaining a fairly decent set of Tricks that didn't require feats to attain. I wonder if Spellbound will cover this?

[Soulcatcher]

That is a fantastic idea, I really like it.  I'd only hesitate to do Ride and Craft (their "tricks" are focuses), or at least not to heaps for them.

Also, damn you - now I'll be thinking about it all night.

Perhaps they could be restructured as focuses costing a trick.  It would also have the advantage of allowing people, for example, to be a great sailor without having to be just as good at other uses of Ride.