Thick Hide

[Morgenstern]

Sorry, was thinking of the old dwarven thick hide, which was Thick Hide 3 (for 2 points). The new one is still thick hide 2 for 1 point (being converted to DR 1), and there is no way 1 point should be buying DR 1 - compare that to having to pay 2 points for 1 extra point of vitality per level (which does less in general and jack diddly against crits compared to DR).

The soldier B ability may not be the greatest of all B abilites, but its still easily better than a typical feat (as you'd expect from a B) in no small part because it does stack with everything. If there were a tier 1 feat that said "You gain 1 DR" with no other restrictions I'd still be concerned that feat was too powerful... and that's 3 points.

Honestly, if I was playing a non-dwarven soldier and saw that, I'd be feeling a bit raw. "1 point for a point of DR? Can I swap one of my proficiencies for that? Those are only 1 point..."

It's a house rule. It's playable. But IMO its in no way an equitable exchange, and it throws all kinds of other survival-oriented choices out of whack.

[Sletchman]

"1 point for a point of DR? Can I swap one of my proficiencies for that? Those are only 1 point..."

You don't think that's just a bit of a straw man right there?  You can make that comparison between every single existing origin ability and get the same result.

"Can my Goblin skill-monkey exchange my +1 vitality / level for +1 skill / level?"
"Can my Unborn exchange my Enlightened skill for a Slam I?"

It's a flawed argument, and I'm pretty sure you know it too.  If you want to go down that road you may as well just print a chart of abilities and tell the players "you have 7pts, go for broke" (which I'm sure won't end badly  ).

We're going to have to agree to disagree about the balance, but I can tell you this - I've been using it since at most a week after 1st printing release and never saw a huge number of Dwarf soldiers or people complaining that they were better soldiers then humans/saurians/elves.  In fact, I've had heaps of new players asking if they could swap Thick Hide for something else, because "it sucks".

I'm far more concerned about certain Saurian Martial Arts combos (which I've seen a LOT of) or Chance whores (which were common enough before, but got even more prevelant with Cultist - an official combo).  But like I said, lets agree to disagree and end this discussion.

[Morgenstern]

"1 point for a point of DR? Can I swap one of my proficiencies for that? Those are only 1 point..."

You don't think that's just a bit of a straw man right there?  You can make that comparison between every single existing origin ability and get the same result.

"Can my Goblin skill-monkey exchange my +1 vitality / level for +1 skill / level?"
"Can my Unborn exchange my Enlightened skill for a Slam I?"

As long as the points are the same, the answer is effectively "yes". By design really. What? You thought I wouldn't agree with that statement? If a point based system is going to exist at all, it has to be able to survive comparisons like that, constantly.

It's a flawed argument, and I'm pretty sure you know it too.  If you want to go down that road you may as well just print a chart of abilities and tell the players "you have 7pts, go for broke" (which I'm sure won't end badly  ).

The ussual proposition is 6 points - mostly because the attribute portion is effectively "+ to any/- to any", and then yeah, it tends to work pretty well actually . And I DID help make a chart like that. Only difference is I classify it as a GM's tool for world creation, rather than a player's tool for character creation. If the GM is comfortable handing over the reigns, go for it.

We're going to have to agree to disagree about the balance, but I can tell you this - I've been using it since at most a week after 1st printing release and never saw a huge number of Dwarf soldiers or people complaining that they were better soldiers then humans/saurians/elves.

*chuckle* as I said, I don't expect the beneficiary to complain . But I will ask the question: "do you think an extra vitality per level is twice as good as DR 1?". Other benchmarks in the game lead me to say 'no' but we can intrepret those values differently (clearly ).

In fact, I've had heaps of new players asking if they could swap Thick Hide for something else, because "it sucks".

Which is why it's dirt cheap - and pretty effective after getting captured and stripped of your gear. Probably some assumptions that would happen more often than it does at your table . Its situational, but its huge when that situation applies.

I'm far more concerned about certain Saurian Martial Arts combos (which I've seen a LOT of) or Chance whores (which were common enough before, but got even more prevelant with Cultist - an official combo).

Heh. Yeah. Cultist would make me nervous too. I don't think I'd put a chance feat and chance mastery in the same package.

But like I said, lets agree to disagree and end this discussion.

Certainly  . ...Now to dispatch my personal praetorian gaming guard to seize your dice!

[LordKruelos]

Certainly  . ...Now to dispatch my personal praetorian gaming guard to seize your dice!

Yo. 

[paddyfool]

Thick hide ... at low level, it's vastly more valuable for some species than others (perhaps most valuable for a Drake, and least valuable for a Goblin), owing to the different costs of armour.  Its utility for a dwarf is pretty niche, but in its niche it's very handy.

Not sure how I feel about "even more DR".  Some Soldier builds are nigh-immune to anything but silly levels of various kinds of damage as it stands.

[Sletchman]

"1 point for a point of DR? Can I swap one of my proficiencies for that? Those are only 1 point..."

You don't think that's just a bit of a straw man right there?  You can make that comparison between every single existing origin ability and get the same result.

"Can my Goblin skill-monkey exchange my +1 vitality / level for +1 skill / level?"
"Can my Unborn exchange my Enlightened skill for a Slam I?"

As long as the points are the same, the answer is effectively "yes". By design really. What? You thought I wouldn't agree with that statement? If a point based system is going to exist at all, it has to be able to survive comparisons like that, constantly.

Yet on this very forum you've pointed out many times that you consider a homebrew origin unbalanced, yet they still add to 7pts and use only standard abilities.  Double standard much?  It's easy to agree to a theoretical statement about how all points are created equal, in practice it just doesn't work.

Also: DR1/- is only 1pt in Spycraft.  I acknowledge a fair bit of evolution from the last edition to this one, but considering many values are extremely close and DR1 < DR1/-, it doesn't seem to be that big a stretch.

We're going to have to agree to disagree about the balance, but I can tell you this - I've been using it since at most a week after 1st printing release and never saw a huge number of Dwarf soldiers or people complaining that they were better soldiers then humans/saurians/elves.

*chuckle* as I said, I don't expect the beneficiary to complain .

You seem to have missed my point here - the beneficiary would be the player with a Dwarf Soldier (or hardy human).  My point is "What Dwarf Soldier?".  If it was so much better then all other options there would be a deluge, yet in 2 years, many groups that I've run demo games for, and hundreds of games run and played - I've seen two Dwarf Soldiers.  I've seen more Saurian Soldiers, Elven Soldiers, Giant Soldiers and even Pech and Goblin Soldiers.  I play with rampant power gamers (and admittedly am one) - if it was overpowered, it would crop up a lot (the exact same way I never see a game without a chance whore).

Clearly we disagree, I only wanted to clarify those points I guess I should have made clearer initially.

[Mister Andersen]

Seems to me you could replace Thick Hide with a limited form of Monstrous Defence I that works against unarmed attacks only (min Thr 20)

[Morgenstern]

Yet on this very forum you've pointed out many times that you consider a homebrew origin unbalanced, yet they still add to 7pts and use only standard abilities.  Double standard much?  It's easy to agree to a theoretical statement about how all points are created equal, in practice it just doesn't work.

Feel free to link to specific cases so I can check my specific motivations, but in general if I find the problem is more that some of the options themselves are mis-priced or need caveats. The trouble is ussually extreme focus on a single objective, and it IMO simply reveals certain options should be restricted form being taken with each other. For example chance master would IMO benefit from having a design restriction "may not be chosen for a specialty that grants a chance feat."

Also: DR1/- is only 1pt in Spycraft.  I acknowledge a fair bit of evolution from the last edition to this one, but considering many values are extremely close and DR1 < DR1/-, it doesn't seem to be that big a stretch.

*shrug* attribute training was 1.5 and a bunch of the 4 pointers were grossly over priced and so on. There's been quite a bit off re-evaluation. Was DR given out anywhere but test subject? I'm drawing a blank on this one.

[Morgenstern]

So, if you are basically saying "Yes, I think a point of vitality each level is twice as good as universal DR 1" then I'm sort of curious how combats have gone at your table that that would be the case. Lots of very high damage hits from the NPCs?

As for chance moneys, are they trying to use chance to leverage combat, leverage skill challenges, or just be sporadically good at both? I'm curious about the level range also, as it effects die size at least for the starting dice.

[Sletchman]

As for chance moneys, are they trying to use chance to leverage combat, leverage skill challenges, or just be sporadically good at both? I'm curious about the level range also, as it effects die size at least for the starting dice.

I've seen AD boosting for both combat and skill challenges, though given the style of the bulk of my games skill boosting is far more common (because skill use is far more common then combat, so it logically follows).

Level range as low as 3 (lower would come up*) and as high as 15 - chance feat abuse in every game.  Actually, to call a shovel a shovel - it's Fortunate abuse in every game.  Most of the other chances feats don't actually get used beyond "this is another chance feat".  Worst case had 14d4 action dice (in addition to his base) before the GM activated his critical failures (it was pre-errata for Fortune's Fool) and they exploded 3/4 times and had bonuses to the roll (and Alchemist...).  The starting dice came in to play far less, because they were saved till the end as "less reliable".

_{*I run many games for people new to the system and as such start them at level 3 - more options, more of the system to show off and less chance that they'll die while getting the hang of combat options.  My regular group doesn't like level 1 or 2 for the same reasons.}

[Morgenstern]

Worst case had 14d4 action dice (in addition to his base) before the GM activated his critical failures (it was pre-errata for Fortune's Fool) and they exploded 3/4 times and had bonuses to the roll (and Alchemist...).

So what's doing the highlighted portion?

[Sletchman]

Worst case had 14d4 action dice (in addition to his base) before the GM activated his critical failures (it was pre-errata for Fortune's Fool) and they exploded 3/4 times and had bonuses to the roll (and Alchemist...).

So what's doing the highlighted portion?

Lady Luck's Smile, IIRC (Away from my books).  If I have that feat mistaken for another - I'm referring to the one that makes your dice explode on the next side down?  Maybe Fortune Favours the Bold?  That and Bold Heroes (I think?  Makes your dice explode on 1's - totally harmless on it's own...).  Even without the campaign quality it would still have been a 50/50 shot, 14 times over, before potions, critical failures, dramatic scenes and starting dice...

[Bill Whitmore]

Well, I am currently having trouble with one of the luck based characters in my game.  My player had asked if we could adapt the Tales of the Rascal feat from Sunchaser to my game, which lets action dice explode on a 1.  Couple that with Lady Luck's Smile, and they explode on their 2 highest results.  That makes 3 sides of the die that explodes.  Which has caused me problems.  I am even contemplating a house rule to fix it, but I'll go over that in a new topic.