Thick Hide

[Ferrous]

Hi Guys,

Thick Hide is listed as counting as wearing partial armour. From the rules this does not stack with other armour.

However does the thick hide partial armour stack with fittings? I am not sure, specifying thick hide as partial armour does sort of imply this maybe the case but are fittings classified as armour?

Also does the extra armour provided with the Soldier class apply?

Cheers.

[pawsplay]

Fittings are something you add to worn armor. i don't think there are provisions for not having a set of armor. Page 173, "Light or heavy fittings may be added to armor (not thick hide)..."

As for the soldier ability, thick hide is armor. +1 Defense for you! If you mean Fortunes of War, that's DR, not armor, so you get that, too.

[ArawnNox]

Though, if you use the gladiator harness out of the Cloak and Dagger setting, you can add fittings to that unarmored body.

[Ferrous]

Thanks for the prompt replies.

[Sletchman]

Though, if you use the gladiator harness out of the Cloak and Dagger setting, you can add fittings to that unarmored body.

While I totally support this, by the RAW a Gladiatorial Harness is partial armour, and as such won't stack with Thick Hide (just the same as Padded + Fittings won't stack).

It is flavoursome, makes sense, and I would totally allow it in any games I ran had I not altered Thick Hide entirely for my group - just check if your GM is the same as myself and ArawnNox (and likely many others) before going ahead with it.

[The_Grand_User]

How'd you change Thick Hide for your group, Sletchman?

[Sletchman]

Reduce all values by 1, stacks with everything.  Additional instances of Thick Hide add together per standard rules (highest value +1 per extra instance).

Ex: Dwarf - Thick Hide 2 becomes DR1.
Draconic Heritage - Thick Hide 3 becomes DR2.

I changed it because it didn't make sense to us that an extra layer of "armour" does nothing extra for you, and because out of the core races the only race with thick hide is the iconic armour wearer - and as such gains no benefit from having thick hide.  This way you aren't paying for something you don't get, so to speak.  YMMV of course and I'm not 100% certain it's totally balanced, but it's worked for us.

[pawsplay]

Reduce all values by 1, stacks with everything.  Additional instances of Thick Hide add together per standard rules (highest value +1 per extra instance).

Ex: Dwarf - Thick Hide 2 becomes DR1.
Draconic Heritage - Thick Hide 3 becomes DR2.

I changed it because it didn't make sense to us that an extra layer of "armour" does nothing extra for you, and because out of the core races the only race with thick hide is the iconic armour wearer - and as such gains no benefit from having thick hide.  This way you aren't paying for something you don't get, so to speak.  YMMV of course and I'm not 100% certain it's totally balanced, but it's worked for us.

Actually, I like the dwarf thing, because you get to choose steel armor, or the naked dward thing. No namby-pamby leather armor for dwarves, nosir.

[Morgenstern]

I changed it because it didn't make sense to us that an extra layer of "armour" does nothing extra for you...

Be cautious - there is a nearby slippery slope with a yawning abyss at the bottom when someone asks, "well, if two layers of armor is good for the dwarf, how's about two layers of armor for my human with more than enough strength to wear some chainmail over his chainmail...?"

[Sletchman]

I changed it because it didn't make sense to us that an extra layer of "armour" does nothing extra for you...

Be cautious - there is a nearby slippery slope with a yawning abyss at the bottom when someone asks, "well, if two layers of armor is good for the dwarf, how's about two layers of armor for my human with more than enough strength to wear some chainmail over his chainmail...?"

We consider it more like Soldier DR - Thick Hide is "Dead 'Ard" DR.  We think this because the alternative (two layers of armour) is that Dwarves have Studded Leather for skin, as do Hardy humans - which is silly, the later especially (being tough alters your genetics to the extent that your skin changes to studded leather?).

So it's not "two layers of armour" being good for the dwarf.  It's: "The Dwarf is a hard [expletive] who happens to wear armour, which doesn't at all diminish how much of a hard [expletive] he is."

My alternate also opens up the possibility of races that do have built in armour (beyond just Partial), that logically can not stack with regular armour (in fact a negative of said race would likely be that they can't wear armour).  Picture from an X-Men cartoon included for reference to what I'm thinking about (hopefully helps, because I couldn't find a better one quickly):

(click to show/hide)

Like I said, and I want to emphasise - the game is very well balanced as it is, and my alternate works for my group and may not for any others.  I can not guarantee that it will work for other people as well as it has for us.  I don't have any problem with the existing ruleset, just my way works better for my group (and is one of many little changes we've made) - last I want is someone pressuring their GM because some random stooge on a forum does things differently.  My appologies to Ferrous for detouring his thread, I hope he still got what he needed.

[Mister Andersen]

I changed it because it didn't make sense to us that an extra layer of "armour" does nothing extra for you...

Be cautious - there is a nearby slippery slope with a yawning abyss at the bottom when someone asks, "well, if two layers of armor is good for the dwarf, how's about two layers of armor for my human with more than enough strength to wear some chainmail over his chainmail...?"

What exactly would be the problem? Layering is actually intensely logical. After all, it's pretty much is the entire basis of how armour works.

[Morgenstern]

What exactly would be the problem? Layering is actually intensely logical. After all, it's pretty much is the entire basis of how armour works.

It basically would bring out that the current armor stats are overwhelmingly forgiving for the sake of simplicity. If you were to take maybe the summ of all armor penalties and multiply it by the number of layers, you'd probably get an intensely logical treatment of the actual difficulties of armoring a flexible body... but I doubt it would be mechanicaly appealing .

My concern with the thick hide -> DR adaptation as it applies to Dwarves its that it's basically giving better than a B class abilty (4+ points) for something that's only been priced as 2. I'm sure it's entertaining as all heck for the player with it, but its still a huge buff. 9+ point origins are always fun, but they may or may not be fair to the other players. The reason Thick hide is so cheap (and it IS cheap for what is does) is that its such an either/or option. 2 points is pretty fair for what amounts to a middling good piece of equipment you can't mislay .

[Sletchman]

My concern with the thick hide -> DR adaptation as it applies to Dwarves its that it's basically giving better than a B class abilty (4+ points) for something that's only been priced as 2. I'm sure it's entertaining as all heck for the player with it, but its still a huge buff. 9+ point origins are always fun, but they may or may not be fair to the other players. The reason Thick hide is so cheap (and it IS cheap for what is does) is that its such an either/or option. 2 points is pretty fair for what amounts to a middling good piece of equipment you can't mislay .

Better then B class ability how exactly?  Soldier DR doubles during dramatic scenes, and stacks with everything without diminishing.  If you have 2 (or more) iterations of Thick Hide it is highest + 1 per instance - not just Value + Value the way Soldier (and rare expert/master classes) does.  Seems inferior to me.

[ArawnNox]

Sletch, I think there was a misunderstanding there.

The way I'm reading that is Morg is saying that changing a Dwarf's Thick Hide to DR IS the better, more valuable option.

[Sletchman]

Sletch, I think there was a misunderstanding there.

The way I'm reading that is Morg is saying that changing a Dwarf's Thick Hide to DR IS the better, more valuable option.

To me, he seems to be saying giving a Dwarf DR1 is better then Fortunes of War I (the B class ability he compared it to).  Which is just not true.

If that's not what he's saying (if he's just comparing Thick Hide to DR) then I'm not sure why he's talking about a B class ability, at all.