PC NPC System overhaul

[Bill Whitmore]

I was reading this from another thread:

5th is of course the absolute worst moment in their performance curve - still stuck at 1st level, foes 4 levels above them for the first time. It'll pick back up as you keep leveling . Back in the previous incarnation of the game (spycraft) it was a feat with a minumum level requirementof 6 to specifically avoid the 'anti-sweet-spot' you're in just now.

And that got me to thinking, does it have to be this way?  The "TL = Level - 4" rule is one of the things that is really starting to bug me about these feats, Animal Companion in particular.  One of my players has a Warhorse he picked up as an animal companion.  They are currently 5th level, so his warhorse is acting as a lowly TL 1 critter.

On the other hand, he could have just purchased a Warhorse with the Exceptional specimen upgrade and he would have had a Warhorse with a TL 4 levels higher but is otherwise identical to his Animal Companion.

I don't really like that you can just spend coin to get something better than a class feature or a feat so I have been tempted to update the way those NPCs are handled by making the following changes to PC owned NPCs, anyways.

I have already made some changes to GM owned NPCs, so I figured I would look at doing something similar to PC owned NPCs.

So here is what I was looking at doing:

• Their XP values all drop 10 points.
• TL is set to the owning players character level.
• 2 free interests, each additional interest is 1 XP.
• 2 free proficiencies or tricks, each additional proficiency or trick is 2 XP.
• Vitality for specials = TL * (Health + Con mod + 2)
• Damage saves for standards = Health bonus + Con mod
• Gear may not be purchased with XP.  Instead, the NPC gets 100sp per TL to spend on gear.  This gear is owned specifically by the NPC, though they may also use gear provided by the PC.  The NPC will replenish her stocks at the start of each adventure unless the item was lost because of a PC's actions.  (i.e. a wizard begins with a mana potion.  If the NPC uses his own potion to replace his spell points, he'll replace it after the adventure.  If another PC mage snags it from him and drinks it, it will not automatically be replaced.)

The reason for each change is as follows:

Their XP values all drop 10 points.

I am basically adding 4 levels of Veteran to every PC owned NPC, which is 8 points.  Plus, if this ends up being too low, none of my PCs will complain if I have to raise the baseline back up by 10 XP, but they will bitch and moan bitterly if the normal baseline is too high and I need to lower it later.

TL is set to the owning players character level.

NPCs scale through all 20 levels smoothly from 1 to 20.  They don't end up static for the first 5 levels of existence nor overly tough at level 1 (when coupled with the vitality change below).

2 free interests, each additional interest is 1 XP.

Interests can give up to a +2 bonus on relevant checks, making these free and unlimited per the normal NPC rules kind of bugged me.

2 free proficiencies or tricks, each additional proficiency or trick is 2 XP.

I wanted these to be more defined since I am allowing the PCs to equip their NPCs (see below).  Also, tricks and proficiencies can be purchased interchangeably, so I left the cost for each the same.

Vitality for specials = TL * (Health + Con mod + 2)

This makes the Special NPCs vitality comparable to PCs, ranging from 3 per level to 12 per level.  In line with all of the other NPC stat tables, Health I gives values lower than average PCs (6) and Health X gives values higher than average PCs (10).

I also add Con bonus to vitality to be in line with PCs.

Damage saves for standards = Health bonus + Con mod

Added Con mod as it seemed effects which boost or impair Con should make even Standard characters harder or easier to kill respectively.

Gear may not be purchased with XP.  Instead, the NPC gets 100sp per TL to spend on gear.  This gear is owned specifically by the NPC, though they may also use gear provided by the PC.  The NPC will replenish her stocks at the start of each adventure unless the item was lost because of a PC's actions.  (i.e. a wizard begins with a mana potion.  If the NPC uses his own potion to replace his spell points, he'll replace it after the adventure.  If another PC mage snags it from him and drinks it, it will not automatically be replaced.)

The arbitrary complexity limit of 15 made some things absurdly easy to get, like a Frigate (comp:15; 15,000s), or absurdly difficult to get, like Fitted Partial Studded Leather (comp: 17; cost 120s).



If you have any comments, suggestions, or concerns, I would be happy to hear them.

[Morgenstern]

I would still set the TL 1 lower than the owner. There are abilities in SPycraft that could be ported over that only affect targets your career Level or lower that probably should be slightly restricted in the hands of a PL/AC. It also leaves room for abilities that increase the pet's TL such as the Captain gamebreaker.

Cappingthe interests is important - and yet another example that the NPC rules were never intended to be at a perfectly equitable scale for player use.

Can probably have interests and proficieny/tricks all at 1 XP each for ease of use.

[Jake]

I like it.

• Their XP values all drop 10 points.
• TL is set to the owning players character level.

Completely worth it for what you're doing.

• 2 free interests, each additional interest is 1 XP.
• 2 free proficiencies or tricks, each additional proficiency or trick is 2 XP.

RP and specialization, good stuff.

• Vitality for specials = TL * (Health + Con mod + 2)
• Damage saves for standards = Health bonus + Con mod

Coming from "No, your drake may not have grade 8 health," and going to "Yeah, you might want to bump his health to 8," seems a bit strange to me. Most of the stuff in the Rogue's Gallery is going to go down very fast, the highest health grade in there is V.  Looking at saves, attack, Init, and defense player stats are usually from 1-5 ( 1 low, 3 mid, 5 high). Making the Vitality formula fall in line with these other stats might work a bit better and the players won't have too dump nearly a fourth of their starting XP into health if they want a tank.

Vitality for specials = TL * ((Health x 2) + Con mod + 2)
And max out health at V. At TL1 it would be I=4, II=6, III=8, IV=10, V=12, assuming Con is 0, which isn't unusual.

• Gear may not be purchased with XP.  Instead, the NPC gets 100sp per TL to spend on gear.  This gear is owned specifically by the NPC, though they may also use gear provided by the PC.  The NPC will replenish her stocks at the start of each adventure unless the item was lost because of a PC's actions.  (i.e. a wizard begins with a mana potion.  If the NPC uses his own potion to replace his spell points, he'll replace it after the adventure.  If another PC mage snags it from him and drinks it, it will not automatically be replaced.)

That works, and prevents the NPC from becoming potion/scroll monkeys. I would suggest the gold completely reset each time the NPC's threat level increase. If there is an important situation where a PC really needs the potion it fits that the NPC would provide it, the NPC wouldn't be permanently penalized and have complicated math forever.
Also, 100sp seems like a good idea for PLs but seems a bit much for Followers and APs.

You're going to run into problems with the Captain's level 14 ability and Path of Beasts IV, but I still really like the idea.

[Bill Whitmore]

Thanks for the comments.  I completely forgot about the Captain's ability and I had never really looked at Path of Beasts.  That's is why I posted it here, you guys don't fail to deliver!

I would still set the TL 1 lower than the owner. There are abilities in SPycraft that could be ported over that only affect targets your career Level or lower that probably should be slightly restricted in the hands of a PL/AC. It also leaves room for abilities that increase the pet's TL such as the Captain gamebreaker.

Good point, I'll go ahead and set the TL as Player level - 1.  I'll have abilities like the Captain's game breaker or Path of Beasts IV increase the TL to your level and add the 10 XP back onto the NPC total, which is about what you would have had before I tweaked everything.

Cappingthe interests is important - and yet another example that the NPC rules were never intended to be at a perfectly equitable scale for player use.

Yea, I know it wasn't meant for players, but players still manage to get a lot of use out of it.  Most of what I talked about here came up in one of my games.  In this case, one of my players has a blacksmith as a PL and wanted him to get some interests to go with it.  Since I didn't like that all interests were 0, it was on my list of things to change.

Can probably have interests and proficieny/tricks all at 1 XP each for ease of use.

I don't have a problem with this.  The only reason I listed proficiencies and tricks as 2XP is because the ability for NPCs to gain tricks is already in the NPC qualities and it is listed as 2 XP per trick.

• Vitality for specials = TL * (Health + Con mod + 2)
• Damage saves for standards = Health bonus + Con mod

Coming from "No, your drake may not have grade 8 health," and going to "Yeah, you might want to bump his health to 8," seems a bit strange to me. Most of the stuff in the Rogue's Gallery is going to go down very fast, the highest health grade in there is V.  Looking at saves, attack, Init, and defense player stats are usually from 1-5 ( 1 low, 3 mid, 5 high). Making the Vitality formula fall in line with these other stats might work a bit better and the players won't have too dump nearly a fourth of their starting XP into health if they want a tank.

Vitality for specials = TL * ((Health x 2) + Con mod + 2)
And max out health at V. At TL1 it would be I=4, II=6, III=8, IV=10, V=12, assuming Con is 0, which isn't unusual.

I don't want to change the system to have stat cap at V while all the others cap at X, but looking at it again, I think I'll drop the +2 and just keep the x2 multiplier.

Vitality for specials = TL * ((Health x 2) + Con mod)

III to V would then be the normal PC range, though certain NPCs could go considerably higher.

• Gear may not be purchased with XP.  Instead, the NPC gets 100sp per TL to spend on gear.  This gear is owned specifically by the NPC, though they may also use gear provided by the PC.  The NPC will replenish her stocks at the start of each adventure unless the item was lost because of a PC's actions.  (i.e. a wizard begins with a mana potion.  If the NPC uses his own potion to replace his spell points, he'll replace it after the adventure.  If another PC mage snags it from him and drinks it, it will not automatically be replaced.)

That works, and prevents the NPC from becoming potion/scroll monkeys. I would suggest the gold completely reset each time the NPC's threat level increase. If there is an important situation where a PC really needs the potion it fits that the NPC would provide it, the NPC wouldn't be permanently penalized and have complicated math forever.
Also, 100sp seems like a good idea for PLs but seems a bit much for Followers and APs.

Hmm, I can see your point, but so long as the PCs aren't allowed to steal the NPCs gear, I am not as concerned by it.  If I wanted to build a unit of cavalry followers, I'd probably still be short the required silver for it.  I had thought about including a wealth rating which would allow a different method of converting XP into wealth from the core system, but I didn't really want to add another item to spread XP into.

Thanks for the input.  I'll keep thinking about the last point.

[Mister Andersen]

See, I'd take the inherent structure of the PC NPC system -- their XP value being increased by the number of [blah] category feats their controller has -- and base the number of Veteran grades you can always optionally purchase on that up to a cap of career level - 1.

Because frankly I'd rather 50 xp at TL-4 over 40 at TL-1 any day.

Similarly, cap interests at number of appropriate feats.

[Morgenstern]

Because frankly I'd rather 50 xp at TL-4 over 40 at TL-1 any day.

I tend to agree. Even with my concerns expressed elsewhere that XP value goes up too fast with feat stacking, I think the base value was probably right about where it needed to be. Other things like standard mounts were written specifically to fall within that range so they could be selected as-is.

Similarly, cap interests at number of appropriate feats.

Now that is quite clever. Me like.

[Mister Andersen]

The "number of feats" mechanic is realy one of the genius -- albeit sometimes frustrating -- cornerstones of Crafty's designwork

[Coyote0273]

I always just pointed out to my players that the Veteran ability made their PL's tougher and they should look into taking 2 or 3 levels of it.

[Krensky]

Depending on the game and GM, Story Critical helps too.

[Antilles]

I dunno, I feel letting PL's take Veteran is kinda muscling in on the Captain's gambreaker. And I probably wouldn't allow Story Critical on PL's, if they were that concerned about their PL dying I'd suggest Class Ability: Lifeline, or at the very least actually charge something for Story Critical.

[Coyote0273]

I dunno, I feel letting PL's take Veteran is kinda muscling in on the Captain's gambreaker.

Not really. It just means when the Captain hits the gamebreaker... his PL is that much more powerful.

[Antilles]

So you'd allow a PL who's technically of a higher level than the PC's? Feels a bit lopsided to me...

[Coyote0273]

I limit what attributes, stats, and overall powers the PL's can get. And, usually, I'm the one who designs the PL to do what my players want in it, as the NPC system tends to confuse the ones who want PL's. So, in those cases, the PL can usually do things the party is lacking in, but I can make sure its not lopsided. But, even if the players designed it, I would still have to approve it, and anything that might overshadow the party as a whole I can shutdown when I see it.

Not without its glitches, but its worked so far.

[Mister Andersen]

So you'd allow a PL who's technically of a higher level than the PC's? Feels a bit lopsided to me...

Game. Breaker.

[Mister Andersen]

I dunno, I feel letting PL's take Veteran is kinda muscling in on the Captain's gambreaker.

Change the text of the gamebreaker to "Your PL gains grades of the Tough or Veteran qualities in any combination up to a combined total increase of 4"