First time FC GM, a question of balance

[Albertorius]

Hiya all

I'm starting my very first Fantasy Craft campaign, set in Eberron and using le Scriptorium's quite thorough "translation" document.

So far, things look good. I like how the player characters have turned out, and the system lends itself quite well to interesting character concepts, even during the character creation process (some of the players didn't really have a clear idea of what they wanted to play, but the FC options sparked quite a bit of ideas).

I've never really liked D&D 3.x, so I have to say that I got quite pleasantly surprised reading FC. It looks quite fun, and seems like a really interesting ruleset.

Well, that said, my players have made:


- An Aundarian magewright wizard, the bastard daughter of a Cannith Dragonmarked heir, drafted as field technician during the last years of the Last War.

- A Corsair Soldier warforged, three years old and trained as a marine, for use in beachhead taking, river crossings and special operations. Paired with a certain aundairan magewright during his first (and last) tour of duty.

- An aerenal elf, follower of the Undying Court, cleric assassin, sworned to take the fight to the abominations of the Blood of Vol.

- A changeling emmisary, trained to blend into society and act as a deep mole. Right now he is posing as a young half elf noble heiress with the higher-ups of Sharn.

- A young shifter, born in captivity and taught to fight to survive in the illegal gladiatorial pits of the lower strata of Sharn, and who has learned to blend his instincts with martial art and body control. He caught the eye of a certain half-elf heiress, and now that he's bought his liberty is acting as her bodyguard.

The only mechanical problem I have right now would be the shifter, since I don't really know if this is balanced or a bit on the OP side. Let me ask you what do you think:

Shifters have a natural Claw I attack from their lycantropic heritage, and ours has taken one species Feat that grants him Claw II (for a total Claw III attack) and AP 4. That, combined with his martial arts abilities (martial artist synergizes quite well with that, actually ^_^) and his gladiator Speciality grants at Level 3 (we've started at level 3 so the wizard can get level 1 spells) a Claw attack of 2d6+7 damage, 18-20 Threat and AP 4. Now, if the add to that Combat Instincts and Two-Hit Combo, it makes him quite a bit of a terror in combat.

Then we have the 'forged (Unborn) soldier, who is a greatsword user (Claymore), and his attacks doesn't seem as good (1d12+3 dmg, threat 19-20, Massive, Reach +1, AP 2, Guard 2). He has a very different combat style, though, since he has taken Charge Basics, Greatsword Basics and Mastery, and his spined body is a danger to attack by itself, so I'm not overly worried, but... hm. I don't really know.

So far, I've taken the AP 4 quality out from the Shifter feat since it doesn't seem to really be needed. Am I overreacting? For reference, here are the character's I've been talking about (sorry, in spanish, but using the official sheets):

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/10485961/Shi...l%20Artist.pdf
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/10485961/War...%20Soldier.pdf

So... what do you think? Am I worrying over nothing?

Thanks in advance.

EDIT: i'm using the Eberron Conversion Document from Le Scriptorium. I cross-posted this from RPGnet and I think I forgot to copy that 

[magustoad]

Quick note as I jet to work:  The links don't work DBox gives a 404 on the webpage.

What Species feat are you taking that wholly grants Claw 2?  The one I'm thinking of just grants an additional level, thus making it Claw 1 + 1 = 2  not 1 + 2 = 3.

Meh gotta run.  I'll check in later tonight...

[Albertorius]

Quick note as I jet to work:  The links don't work DBox gives a 404 on the webpage.

Hm. Weird. I'll try it again, then:

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/10485961/Warforged%20Soldier.pdf
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/10485961/Shifter%20Martial%20Artist.pdf

If that still doesn't work, I'll try and rehost an english version to 4hared or something this afternoon.

What Species feat are you taking that wholly grants Claw 2?  The one I'm thinking of just grants an additional level, thus making it Claw 1 + 1 = 2  not 1 + 2 = 3.

Meh gotta run.  I'll check in later tonight...

I took both the Shifter race and the species feat from this:

http://www.le-scriptorium.com/uploads/file/Aides_de_jeu/Mastercraft/eberron_conversion_guide.pdf

The feat is Lycantropic Bloodline (Sharp Claws).

[Jake]

Well the WF has an average damage of 9.5 and can hit conditionally at 15 damage using his stance and his opponent gives him an opening.

The shifter hits for an average damage of 12 and 14 conditionally when in rage stance.

The WF has the possibility of doing the most damage overall but it looks like the shifter is going to throw out more damage consistently with less requirements.  Considering that the Shifter will grow, once you add in Rage Mastery and Master's Art his attack is going 2d6+12  17-20. +4 for Martial Arts & Master's Art, +4 from Dex (assuming that is his chosen stat for Martial Arts), +2 from Berserker stance, and +1 from Crunch! (assuming you allow him to use it with his Dex based damage, which I would), and +1 from Lyconthropic Bloodline when in Beserker stance. Giving him an average damage of 16 and conditional 20 when in his stance. It's going to get pretty nutty. On Page 103 of FC there is another feat that will increase all of his nature attack an additional grade, making his attack 2d6+12 16-20.   

If you switched it for another (second) claw attack that would work out to 1d6+7 19-20 and 1d6+7 19-20. Giving him an average damage of 8.5 and conditional of 10.5
With Master's that becomes 1D6+9 18-20, Av of 10.5, Con of 12.5.
With Rage Mastery, it's 1d6+10 18-20, Av 10.5 and Con 13.5.
With Native Ferocity (FC 103) it becomes 1d6+10 16-20 with two attacks and AP4 on each, that's pretty good.   

[aegis]

As you said yourself, your warforged has a really different combat style, much less damage-oriented, but not without assets. He can cover a lot of space, control a lot of space as well, and benefit from both an interesting stance and a good trick - and an even better one when he takes Greatsword Supremacy. If you want him to inflict more damage, All-Out Attack is an excellent investment - from which the shifter simply cannot benefit by the way. Otherwise, the shifter is rather optimized, with a good choice of origins/class/feats that have a great synergy. If you feel AP 4 is too much, as a GM, you may lower it at 2, but I don't think it's necessary to suppress it altogether.

Edit: Well, after re-reading the feats in detail, this one feat is indeed too high on the power scale. Dropping the AP or lowering the Claw grade to II should be a good call.

[Krensky]

There is also the tried and true (and very Crafty) solution of presenting the shifter and his buddies problems where combat is not the solution.

Sure they rock the combat minigame. Let them. Challenge them with social encounters or investigatory ones. Encounters where the magewrite's science or family connections or the assassin and emissarys skills are the deciding factor.

Just keep in mind what they can do when building a combat encounter, and remember that any combo they can pull off, you can do in spades if needed.

[pawsplay]

Greatsword is really more of a battlefield control style... for damage output, a longsword wielded in two hands with the Martial Spirit stance is decidedly better. The WF has a really nice style, since his greatsword stance can force opponents to choose between moving or taking heavy damage, and if they move, he can charge.

[Albertorius]

Lots of interesting comments, thank you very much, everyone, to take the time for it  

Jake: Well, hopefully the shifter will realize that he really doesn't need to optimize all that much more and he'll use his upcoming feats for other things ^_^. I was under the impression that natural attacks of the same type had to be added. Isn't that so?

aegis: Actually, I like the combat style of the 'forged quite a bit, TBH. It looks like he has a big bag of truciks for every occasion. For the moment I've dismissed the AP part of the feat, but I'll give it a fair shakedown to see how it works.

Krensky: I'm not worried at all about the shifter being able to trounce over the opposition (I mean, that's what he wants and what he's designed his PC to do, so it would be mean no giving it to him ^^). What I fear is for him to overshadow the 'forged when combat is joined.

pawsplay: I think you're absolutely right. As I said, I like  his combat style, but if he's really worried about it (the detonant for this thread was a comment from him after seeing the shifter's sheet after all), I'll probably talk to him about changing the weapon for an increased scale longsword and a couple of feat changes.

Now that I think about it, I have another question, regarding the Greatsword Mastery's benefit: what does it exactly entails? I'm afraid I don't completely understand it. It specifies that you are able to perform hammer and sword tricks, but all the general tricks are general, so is the feat talking specifically about the tricks gained from the Hammer and Sword feat trees? If so, it seems like you'll have to make a big feat investment for it to pay off (but then again, the trick it allows is great).

EDIT: Oh, oh, another one; I love the FC Feats. Love them. Would it unbalance too much the system if I gave the PCs more bonus feats?

[Antilles]

To be far, the shifter's feat is pretty powerful. Base Species + 1 feat = Claw III + AP4? Eyeballing the books it looks like the other species only go up to grade II, sometimes after 2 feats. How about splitting the feat? 1 feat gives Claw I and AP 4, and you make another feat that gives Claw I and bleed. Still pretty good, better than the generic +1 grade natural attack feat.

Also, more feats is not necessarily a bad thing, as long as you adjust the npc's power levels to match. Perhaps take a look at the Fast Feats campaign quality, page 323.

[dorward]

Now that I think about it, I have another question, regarding the Greatsword Mastery's benefit: what does it exactly entails? I'm afraid I don't completely understand it. It specifies that you are able to perform hammer and sword tricks, but all the general tricks are general, so is the feat talking specifically about the tricks gained from the Hammer and Sword feat trees? If so, it seems like you'll have to make a big feat investment for it to pay off (but then again, the trick it allows is great).

Remember that you get the other benefits of those feats as well. So it lets you buy them without having to treat the tricks you gain as waste.

EDIT: Oh, oh, another one; I love the FC Feats. Love them. Would it unbalance too much the system if I gave the PCs more bonus feats?

Page 323 has the Fast Feats campaign quality, so it has been planned for.

[pawsplay]

[The feat is Lycantropic Bloodline (Sharp Claws).

Claw II and +2 Strength in Berserk Stance is already pretty strong.  I think the AP 4 should be dropped; I would be interested to hear the rationale why it was felt it was needed.

[Morgenstern]

Just remember Berserk stance is asking to get your butt bounced off the ground a few times (trip = auto-fatigue). It's a pretty high risk/high reward strategy.

You might find this version of shifters a bit more manageable (notibly because shifting is itself a stance, which prevents stacking berserk on top of it)~

http://www.crafty-games.com/forum/index.php?topic=4797.0

On a perfectly selfish note, if you could have the Unborn swap his Greatsword feats for an equal number of these feats for one evening, I'd love to get some live playtest feedback

http://www.crafty-games.com/forum/index.php?topic=5679.0

[Krensky]

I always use Fast Feats for two reasons.

My NPCs tend to be tough, look at the Pathfinder AP conversion thread for some examples.

It let my players spread out and take feats because they're cool or fit a concept without feeling like they're sacrificing anything to do so. Of course I don't have any munchkins at my table, so people don't generally pile them all on one aspect of their character.

[The_Grand_User]

And even if they did, I think FC is robust enough to handle it without too much trouble.

I always play with Fast Feats as well, there's just too many good ones and they're pretty critical for a good concept. I wonder how getting a feat every level would work.

[Morgenstern]

I always play with Fast Feats as well, there's just too many good ones and they're pretty critical for a good concept. I wonder how getting a feat every level would work.

I tend to think it would start inflicting severe in-play option paralysis by about level 9.

One of the reason Mastercraft Feats can be so packed with awesome is they tend to present individual active strategies, rather than passive stackable bonuses. You can have 3 great stances, but you can only use one at a time. You can have 9 briliant tricks but you've still only got 2-4 actions in a round to fire them. You can have a powerhouse 3 Edge effect, but once you use it it'll be a few rounds before it's charged up again. Numerical bonuses are both rare and fairly small, and frequently named to make them even less likely to accumulate into some sort of juggernaut.