Maul and war hammer do subdual damage?

[Crafty_Alex]

As always I will say two things:

1) I want to highlight two bullets from Subdual Damage, since folks seem to miss them:

• Certain sources of subdual damage logically damage objects. The GM decides which sources make sense on a case-by-case basis. Hammers should damage windows, for example, even when they inflict subdual damage. Fists, however, are probably — though not always — useless against steel doors.
• Subdual damage can eventually kill. When an unconscious character suffers subdual damage, the character instead suffers the same amount of lethal damage.

Emphasis mine. I point these out only because folks believe incorrectly subdual cannot kill, and it cannot damage objects.

2) If you have a problem with subdual damage's core function, just change the damage type to lethal. This will not break the weapons in question, though it does cause it to lose some of its other features (like fatiguing targets). Them's the breaks

I think that is probably all I can say on this topic at this point. Fortunately, changing stuff in this system is easy

[Bill Whitmore]

As always I will say two things:

1) I want to highlight two bullets from Subdual Damage, since folks seem to miss them:

• Certain sources of subdual damage logically damage objects. The GM decides which sources make sense on a case-by-case basis. Hammers should damage windows, for example, even when they inflict subdual damage. Fists, however, are probably — though not always — useless against steel doors.
• Subdual damage can eventually kill. When an unconscious character suffers subdual damage, the character instead suffers the same amount of lethal damage.

Emphasis mine. I point these out only because folks believe incorrectly subdual cannot kill, and it cannot damage objects.

2) If you have a problem with subdual damage's core function, just change the damage type to lethal. This will not break the weapons in question, though it does cause it to lose some of its other features (like fatiguing targets). Them's the breaks

I think that is probably all I can say on this topic at this point. Fortunately, changing stuff in this system is easy

Just to clarify, the part about being able to damage objects was not in the second printing.  It is part of the errata, which can be downloaded from here: http://www.crafty-games.com/downloads

[Crafty_Alex]

Just to clarify, the part about being able to damage objects was not in the second printing.  It is part of the errata, which can be downloaded from here: http://www.crafty-games.com/downloads

Actually, it is, since I C&Ped that from my copy of the second printing PDF.

[Crafty_Pat]

Just to clarify, the part about being able to damage objects was not in the second printing.  It is part of the errata, which can be downloaded from here: http://www.crafty-games.com/downloads

Actually, it is, since I C&Ped that from my copy of the second printing PDF.

It's in the PDF but not the print version of the Second Printing - because we can update a PDF but we can't update a book.

See people? This is why we never used to update our PDFs... 

(Still happy we do BTW - just pointing out one of the reasons we didn't for a long time.)

[SilvercatMoonpaw]

(Still happy we do BTW - just pointing out one of the reasons we didn't for a long time.)

(Would have been better as a joke about old-fashioned technology. )

[Bill Whitmore]

Just to clarify, the part about being able to damage objects was not in the second printing.  It is part of the errata, which can be downloaded from here: http://www.crafty-games.com/downloads

Actually, it is, since I C&Ped that from my copy of the second printing PDF.

It's in the PDF but not the print version of the Second Printing - because we can update a PDF but we can't update a book.

See people? This is why we never used to update our PDFs... 

(Still happy we do BTW - just pointing out one of the reasons we didn't for a long time.)

But it isn't what you get from DriveThru RPG.  I just re-downloaded the second printing from their site and it still says "• Subdual damage doesn’t affect objects."

[Crafty_Pat]

But it isn't what you get from DriveThru RPG.  I just re-downloaded the second printing from their site and it still says "• Subdual damage doesn’t affect objects."

Huh? That's not right...

I'm about to go into a Spycraft Third meeting and can't double-check this right now but I'll look into it later today and see what's going on.

[Sletchman]

If you hit someone in the head or body with a sledge hammer, you are likely going to die.  Maybe not as quickly or with as high of probability as with a sword, but non-penetrating attacks are still nasty.

Part of my martial arts training routine involves a 7kg (head weight) sledge and a truck tire.  I change my routine whenever anyone else is in my garage with me because I honestly consider it far more dangerous then a sword (a number of which I've also trained with).  If I connected with a human being on any swing there's no way that ends without shattered bones at an absolute minimum.

As it is though, subdual can't break bones at all and given many of the subdual weapons that is pretty stupid - all except the Sap would inflict all critical injuries in the game so far (and maybe whips?  NFI there...).  I know my first step towards a house rule I'm happy with is to remove the "cannot inflict critical injuries line", but not sure where to from there.  I think your suggestion of a bludgeoning damage type is a very interesting idea though, and something to ponder.

Just to clarify, the part about being able to damage objects was not in the second printing.  It is part of the errata, which can be downloaded from here: http://www.crafty-games.com/downloads

Actually, it is, since I C&Ped that from my copy of the second printing PDF.

All I can guess is that either one of the updates to the Drive Thru RPG PDF didn't go through correctly, or yours is customised in some way (and you forgot?) because mine doesn't have that bit of errata incorporated either.  I also double checked it was the most up to date on on DTRPG like Bill.

I'm about to go into a Spycraft Third meeting

Well played, Pat.

[Crafty_Alex]

All I can guess is that either one of the updates to the Drive Thru RPG PDF didn't go through correctly, or yours is customised in some way (and you forgot?) because mine doesn't have that bit of errata incorporated either.  I also double checked it was the most up to date on on DTRPG like Bill.

We do not have the luxury of re-laying out documents for personal use The creation date of mine is 5/13/11.

[Bill Whitmore]

But it isn't what you get from DriveThru RPG.  I just re-downloaded the second printing from their site and it still says "• Subdual damage doesn’t affect objects."

Huh? That's not right...

I'm about to go into a Spycraft Third meeting and can't double-check this right now but I'll look into it later today and see what's going on.

No problem.  I didn't realize there was a problem until now, either.  When you said that the pdf had been updated I got excited and downloaded it again.

All I can guess is that either one of the updates to the Drive Thru RPG PDF didn't go through correctly, or yours is customised in some way (and you forgot?) because mine doesn't have that bit of errata incorporated either.  I also double checked it was the most up to date on on DTRPG like Bill.

We do not have the luxury of re-laying out documents for personal use The creation date of mine is 5/13/11.

According to RPGNow it was last updated on 2010-07-09.

[Sletchman]

All I can guess is that either one of the updates to the Drive Thru RPG PDF didn't go through correctly, or yours is customised in some way (and you forgot?) because mine doesn't have that bit of errata incorporated either.  I also double checked it was the most up to date on on DTRPG like Bill.

We do not have the luxury of re-laying out documents for personal use The creation date of mine is 5/13/11.

Fair enough - a few of my mates edit Errata directly into their PDFs for ease of use, so I figured you might be like them (plus unlike them you don't have to bypass the security to edit this one).

Had to download a new PDF reader to find this out, but:
Created: 6/7/2010, 3:48:07 PM
Last Modified: 19/4/2012, 7:09:49 PM (downloaded just then from Drive Thru RPG).

[Gilbetron]

Part of my martial arts training routine involves a 7kg (head weight) sledge and a truck tire.  I change my routine whenever anyone else is in my garage with me because I honestly consider it far more dangerous then a sword (a number of which I've also trained with).  If I connected with a human being on any swing there's no way that ends without shattered bones at an absolute minimum.

As it is though, subdual can't break bones at all and given many of the subdual weapons that is pretty stupid - all except the Sap would inflict all critical injuries in the game so far (and maybe whips?  NFI there...).  I know my first step towards a house rule I'm happy with is to remove the "cannot inflict critical injuries line", but not sure where to from there.  I think your suggestion of a bludgeoning damage type is a very interesting idea though, and something to ponder.

The big difference between blunt and penetrating is that penetrating requires a lot less mass (less energy, really) to do the same damage.  I can mess someone up with a little razor, but a hammer that size is just cute  A hammer that does 1d6 is a lot heavier, and correspondingly more difficult to wield, than a dagger that does 1d6.  I think the house rule I'm going with is simply that blunt weapons let you decide the split between subdual and lethal.  It's far easier to tap someone upside the skull with a staff than a sword.  

[Crafty_Pat]

Yeah, it looks like that PDF is out of date for some reason. Not sure why but it doesn't really matter. I'll get it updated in the manana.

Sorry about that folks. We have no idea how that happened.

[Gilbetron]

Yeah, it looks like that PDF is out of date for some reason. Not sure why but it doesn't really matter. I'll get it updated in the manana.

Sorry about that folks. We have no idea how that happened.

Obviously the way to make it up to us is giving us the current version of Spellbound as a PDF.

Obviously

[Crafty_Pat]

The file's been uploaded and we've sent out an alert to all customers who've bought a copy (which you'll only receive if you have email alerts on).

Thanks for letting us know that was an issue. It's good to get that updated.