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Author Topic: Maul and war hammer do subdual damage?  (Read 9275 times)
Desertpuma
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« Reply #135 on: January 16, 2012, 10:42:32 PM »

I think it needs to be repeated ...

Crafty, specifically Pat, has stated what their view is on it and that it does not need to be errataed.

Additionally, the FantasyCraft motto is: "Your Dungeon, Your Dragon, Your Way." Unlike D&D, where everything needed to be codified and people still houseruled stuff the way they wanted anyway, you can houserule the change in your game. Just make sure all your players know this. We've said to many a D&D player new to these forums about FC: You need to unlearn what you have learned. ....

The official ruling has been given. If you disagree, then change it for your home game. Simple.
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« Reply #136 on: January 17, 2012, 02:45:12 AM »

As I mentioned earlier, it doesn't need errata-ing, though it could do with a paragraph or two in the clarifications section. Getting it down in writing that in some cases 'immunity to subdual' is meant to be 'immunity to being worn out and knocked unconscious' rather than 'immunity to most blunt weapons' and that a GM can and probably should take steps to keep such weapons effective, such as example 1 or example 2, would do wonders to prevent some of the confusion that has cropped up several times in these kinds of threads.

Yes, it's basically reiterating rule zero, but in my experience some GM's and players need the occasional reminder of it.
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« Reply #137 on: January 17, 2012, 08:02:57 AM »

yeah, the intent is not all that clear, sometimes the "explanations" in this thread have made it less clear not more so.
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« Reply #138 on: January 17, 2012, 09:23:41 AM »

As I mention, we've flagged it as something to look at the next time we do an errata update or related product. Until then, honestly, run with the rule that works best for you. That is, after all, the point of the system. Smiley
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« Reply #139 on: January 18, 2012, 05:42:36 AM »

If subdual doesn't mean "knock unconscious," I don't see the point of the damage type.

All the intermediate steps of Fatigued I to IV are pretty desirable as an attacker Smiley.
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« Reply #140 on: January 18, 2012, 07:52:29 AM »

If subdual doesn't mean "knock unconscious," I don't see the point of the damage type.

All the intermediate steps of Fatigued I to IV are pretty desirable as an attacker Smiley.

Still doesn't justify it conceptually, but the conversation's moved past the point regardless.
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« Reply #141 on: February 06, 2012, 02:50:37 AM »

Or add the spiked quality. Instant transfer to lethal within the rules. Ta da.

That does not solve the issue with the damage type and weapons themselves however. People will find ways to house rule it but there seems to be a disconnect between what the damage type is meant to do, weapon types and creatures themselves.Something being immune to being knocked out is not the same as something that is immune to subdual, if subdual can damage objects and brake bones.

I've never quite understood the persistence of the "comedy-style brain injury" meme in action films, but FC and the other Crafty games seem to accept this trope. It does have a strange interaction when it comes to hammers and inanimate objects. In real life, if you get knocked out by a blow to the head, and are unconscious more than about a minute, you've probably lost some fraction of an IQ point, permanently. That's setting aside the possibility you might suffer from temporary (or somewhat permanent) visual impairment, emotional control issues that can persist months or even years, etc. In some ways, being hit by a maul is a lot more "lethal" than a sword blow; slashing and piercing channels can be narrow enough that they may not cost you much besides lost blood and a funny scar. But if someone hits you with a sledge hammer? Even if it just hits your femur or something, ouch. You ain't goin' to the Olympics this year.
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« Reply #142 on: February 06, 2012, 09:41:03 AM »

I've never quite understood the persistence of the "comedy-style brain injury" meme in action films.....
Because the alternative is as you describe.  Honestly is there any easy way to render someone unconscious in Real Life that doesn't have some possibility of horrible side-effects?
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« Reply #143 on: February 06, 2012, 06:36:27 PM »

I've never quite understood the persistence of the "comedy-style brain injury" meme in action films.....
Because the alternative is as you describe.  Honestly is there any easy way to render someone unconscious in Real Life that doesn't have some possibility of horrible side-effects?

Sleeper holds tend to be relatively side-effect free.
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« Reply #144 on: February 06, 2012, 06:54:29 PM »

I've never quite understood the persistence of the "comedy-style brain injury" meme in action films.....
Because the alternative is as you describe.  Honestly is there any easy way to render someone unconscious in Real Life that doesn't have some possibility of horrible side-effects?

One approach, of course, would be to say there really isn't such a thing as "subdual" damage... In real life, you are usually talking about a chemical agent, and the gentlest can also be the deadliest if too large a doze is used.

Quote from: Agent 333
Sleeper holds tend to be relatively side-effect free.

Only because the recipients tend to submit. If you actually went around sleeperholding people into unconsciousness, you' would be causing lots of brain cell damage and probably a few deaths here and there. Asphyxiation is not nice to you.
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« Reply #145 on: February 08, 2012, 10:48:39 PM »

I've never quite understood the persistence of the "comedy-style brain injury" meme in action films.....
Because the alternative is as you describe.  Honestly is there any easy way to render someone unconscious in Real Life that doesn't have some possibility of horrible side-effects?

Sleeper holds tend to be relatively side-effect free.
I beg to differ, most windpipe choke holds are not pleasant compared to a good old blood flow one.
A poorly executed "sleeper hold" has caused quite a few deaths and I believe most law enforcement agencies do not allow the use of them for that reason.
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« Reply #146 on: April 19, 2012, 09:21:07 AM »

Apologies for the minor thread necromancy!

We've been struggling with this for a bit, and what really underlies the discussion is that there should be a third type of damage:  blunt.  In the forensics/medical world there is blunt trauma and penetrating trauma, and their blunt trauma is *not* subdual - the medical world would laugh at the concept of subdual damage in general.  If you hit someone in the head or body with a sledge hammer, you are likely going to die.  Maybe not as quickly or with as high of probability as with a sword, but non-penetrating attacks are still nasty.

A sap or a fist or a shield should cause subdual damage - I have no problem there.  I can even squint and accept that the staff and club do subdual.  But mauls and hammers and flails most definitely do not.  However, I can also see that they don't cause lethal, either.  So there should be the Blunt damage type.  One option is to simply say Blunt does half subdual and lethal.  Or maybe you can split up the damage done between the two.

Blunt also has no problem with objects - because when you go to smash a table or door, do you reach for a sword or a sledge hammer? 
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SilvercatMoonpaw
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« Reply #147 on: April 19, 2012, 09:55:56 AM »

I wouldn't have a problem with the idea.
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« Reply #148 on: April 19, 2012, 11:00:10 AM »

This just keeps coming up, and I feel like the problem is entirely with Crafty's use of the word Subdual.  It should be called blunt or bludgeoning or something like that.  No one ever has a problem with the mechanics or the visuals or anything else, it's always that giant ****ing hammers should kill people.  The response is also always the same: they do.  Against standard NPCs, all damage works exactly the same.  Against special NPCs, the end result of both lethal and subdual damage is that they wind up unconscious on the ground and at the mercy of their opponents.  The only difference then is whether they are bleeding or not, and whether they had to deal with grades of fatigued on the way.

The no damage to objects thing is a bit wonky, but I kind of see where they're coming from.  Frequently, if a subdual weapon doesn't completely or nearly destroy an object in one hit, more hits are not going to have much of a cumulative effect, and I think that's the situation they're trying to model.  If you want to smash a door or table, a sledgehammer will do fine.  If you want to smash castle walls, that sledgehammer is a poor choice.
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« Reply #149 on: April 19, 2012, 12:03:45 PM »

Actually, a sledgehammer is a poor choice for smashing a door. For smashing it's latch and hinges,  when you're on the inside, that's a different story. The object of choice for smashing down doors and walls quickly is a axe. That's why firemen carry married irons (an axe and a hallagan bar) more often then a sledge.

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