Maul and war hammer do subdual damage?

[Seekerofshadowlight]

True, you could do a few things add a "Crushing" quality that allows it to hurt objects and critters not harmed by subdual or add a "Less then Lethal" quality if you change subdual so it effects objects.

You mean like the one I suggested three posts up? By that name, in fact.

That seemed way over kill honestly. It does not need to do better vs living, simply those things immune to subdual that should not be if it is not bruising damage.

[Crafty_Pat]

It's a quote from an old SNL sketch where Mike Myers played a Scottish shop owner. The Shop sold all kinds of Scottish stuff, and he'd yell at people for coming in looking for things that weren't Scottish (like people asking for Irish things, or one guy looking for a non-Scottish royal crest...).

We have three sizes: wee, not so wee, and FRIGGIN' HUGE! 

[Crafty_Pat]

I would remove the whole "Subdual damage doesn’t affect objects." line. Not just modify it but remove it

Have you looked at the errata? Because that's just what we did, ages ago.

The reason many things are immune to subdual damage isn't because the damage is bruising, but because of the way we look at what those damage types are trying to accomplish. Lethal kills and subdual knocks out. Skeletons can't be knocked out, so they're immune to subdual. Simple as that.

[Seekerofshadowlight]

I would remove the whole "Subdual damage doesn’t affect objects." line. Not just modify it but remove it

Have you looked at the errata? Because that's just what we did, ages ago.

The reason many things are immune to subdual damage isn't because the damage is bruising, but because of the way we look at what those damage types are trying to accomplish. Lethal kills and subdual knocks out. Skeletons can't be knocked out, so they're immune to subdual. Simple as that.

No, you modified it. It has not been totally removed. I am all for they way you changed it, but been better just to remove it in place of having to make corner case changes. If it can break bones, then it should be able to hurt anything that can be crushed or smashed.

[Goodlun]

A healthy dose of
Rule 0
pretty much completely covers this topic without the need of new damage types or codes or anything else really
Its why I love table top rpgs SO much more than computer ones. 

[Crafty_Pat]

I would remove the whole "Subdual damage doesn’t affect objects." line. Not just modify it but remove it

Have you looked at the errata? Because that's just what we did, ages ago.

The reason many things are immune to subdual damage isn't because the damage is bruising, but because of the way we look at what those damage types are trying to accomplish. Lethal kills and subdual knocks out. Skeletons can't be knocked out, so they're immune to subdual. Simple as that.

No, you modified it. It has not been totally removed. I am all for they way you changed it, but been better just to remove it in place of having to make corner case changes. If it can break bones, then it should be able to hurt anything that can be crushed or smashed.

Well, all I can say is that at this time we disagree - mainly for the reasons I mention above. Our view of what lethal and subdual are differ from some folks, which is fine. The game's a toolkit and you can and should modify as you like.

[Seekerofshadowlight]

I understand you disagree, it just seems you and Morgenstern seem to be on two different wavelengths  You state it knocks ya out, he stated he had in mind it broke and bashed you. So yeah that confuses me. If it is bashing, bone breaking then it should be able to hurt almost everything.

I mean I get now what subdual is in fantasycraft, if it is bashing, but then I can't get why anything is immune to it. May have been simpler just to call it bashing, shug.

[Desertpuma]

Because Undead are no longer conscious and therefore can not be knocked unconscious.

[Crafty_Pat]

I understand you disagree, it just seems you and Morgenstern seem to be on two different wavelengths  You state it knocks ya out, he stated he had in mind it broke and bashed you. So yeah that confuses me. If it is bashing, bone breaking then it should be able to hurt almost everything.

I mean I get now what subdual is in fantasycraft, if it is bashing, but then I can't get why anything is immune to it. May have been simpler just to call it bashing, shug.

Well, I can't speak for Morg's approach. He was on the design team for the original book but he's a free agent now. I can speak for how we view the damage types at the home office at this time, and it's as I've described.

Because Undead are no longer conscious and therefore can not be knocked unconscious.

Precisely.

[Seekerofshadowlight]

Gotcha, that is the disconnect then. He was thinking one thing and you guys another.

[Albertorius]

Skeletons have Archilles Heel: Blunt in the errata (the "fix").  With zombies and other undead / constructs / other immune things you are basicaly hosed (forced to suffer -4 and half damage).

Also check the Subdual entry - it does mention that if the damage should logically apply to the target, that it does.  So it really comes down to your GM agreeing that "Yes, that big ass hammer should smash apart a zombie", as opposed to an actual rule.

How about unborn PCs/NPCs? IIRC, constructs are immune to subdual damage, so they'd basically be immune to mauls and warhammers. Folloing that reasoning, would you rule that subdual weapons do lethal damage against constructs?

[Sletchman]

How about unborn PCs/NPCs? IIRC, constructs are immune to subdual damage, so they'd basically be immune to mauls and warhammers. Folloing that reasoning, would you rule that subdual weapons do lethal damage against constructs?

If it made sense that a given weapon (not damage type, weapon) should be able to damage a creature, then the GM should allow it to damage the creature (as lethal).  A Sap shouldn't damage a stone golem, but a Maul should (which is why straight Archilles Heel: Subdual is no fix at all).  Not my personal fix, but one that should work for everyone who doesn't have a RAW-crazy GM.

[Albertorius]

If it made sense that a given weapon (not damage type, weapon) should be able to damage a creature, then the GM should allow it to damage the creature (as lethal).  A Sap shouldn't damage a stone golem, but a Maul should (which is why straight Archilles Heel: Subdual is no fix at all).  Not my personal fix, but one that should work for everyone who doesn't have a RAW-crazy GM.

In my case the problem would be with a Warforged PC in our Eberron game. I've used unborn as warforged as-is, and as unborn are immune to subdual (and a whole lot other things) he tends to be very durable (and basically immune to brawling, I guess ^^).

[Seekerofshadowlight]

I would add a "Crushing" quality to most of those weapons allowing it to inflict lethal damage on creatures immune to subdual. Which is pretty much the same as just saying "I think it would effect this"

[Crafty_Pat]

Again, we view unborn and undead and such as immune to subdual because they don't ever sleep and can't fall unconscious. It sounds like your issues are with the weapons in question being used primarily to knock folks out rather than kill them, which is fine. All that's required is to switch those damage types to lethal.