Maul and war hammer do subdual damage?

[Seekerofshadowlight]

Well most games and almost all d20 games  do use subdual = busing damage. Kinda programmed behavior I guess. Yep you're odd

[Morgenstern]

As a wise man once said,

If it's not Scottish, it's crap.

I'm trying to decide if this is a pun based on my name .

I think its just a coincidence though.

[Morgenstern]

Well most games and almost all d20 games  do use subdual = busing damage. Kinda programmed behavior I guess. Yep you're odd

"Bruising" in Spycraft was a small amount of subdual damge that got applied if DR completely soaked up an attack so that even if you ran into someone in ridiculously thick bodyarmor, you could always eventually batter them into submission. Remains to be seen if the mechanic survives into the next generation, but it definitely helped head off some sillier scenarios before they happened.

I recognize the effect of legacy expectations in d20 games, but you have to think, in any serious pummeled-til-unconcious beating in real life, the first question is ussually "so, how many ribs did you crack?" Real life 'subduing' people is pretty nasty, brutish work. It takes a lot more than a few bruises to make a person stop moving.

Minor aside, this is why I acquired such a high degree of respect for the joint-locking techniques I learned in aikido. A brutally sincere joint lock is not all that different from having a firearm pointed at your torso - resist, and you're gonna get permanent, grisly injury.

[Seekerofshadowlight]

I am very knew to the system, never played spycraft. However, I do see where you are coming from now that you have explained your thinking. Some of the rules ( to me anyhow) seem to enforce the idea that it is just bruising damage. while others (such as the hammer feats) seem to enforce that it is not. I now at lest understand those feats more now.

Again, thanks for talking the time to respond.

[SilvercatMoonpaw]

Wait, if that's how it works than shouldn't all undead have skeleton's achilles heel?  Solid constructs, sure, but something like a zombie has bones.

[Seekerofshadowlight]

Wait, if that's how it works than shouldn't all undead have skeleton's achilles heel?  Solid constructs, sure, but something like a zombie has bones.

The diffidence is if you break a skeletons arm, the arm fall off. If you break a zombies are it is still there and works, but is now at an odd angle or something.

[SilvercatMoonpaw]

Then it sounds like those kind of undead shouldn't be immune to subdual: do enough of that and the zombie might as well be unconscious.

[Goodlun]

Minor aside, this is why I acquired such a high degree of respect for the joint-locking techniques I learned in aikido. A brutally sincere joint lock is not all that different from having a firearm pointed at your torso - resist, and you're gonna get permanent, grisly injury.

I always preferred the chokes of Judo and BJJ safe effective way to put someone to sleep and take control of a situation.  Never felt that Chokes and Joint Locks have been particularly well modeled in any RPG. 

[Sletchman]

The entire problem is that too many NPCs (and PCs) have built in damage type immunities.  Many of which make no damn sense - you can kill a stone golem with a rapier, but not a sledge hammer - considering it's just a stone statue, you can see the obvious problem.  All undead are by default non-sentient (no stress damage = no ego = non-sentient).

[Agent 333]

As a wise man once said,

If it's not Scottish, it's crap.

I'm trying to decide if this is a pun based on my name .

I think its just a coincidence though.

It's a quote from an old SNL sketch where Mike Myers played a Scottish shop owner. The Shop sold all kinds of Scottish stuff, and he'd yell at people for coming in looking for things that weren't Scottish (like people asking for Irish things, or one guy looking for a non-Scottish royal crest...).

[Agent 333]

More helpful to the discussion at hand:
Perhaps a new Weapon Quality for Mauls and War hammers (and possibly certain Greatswords)?
Crushing: This weapon deals lethal damage to scenery, Constructs, and Undead. In addition, it gains keen 8 against living targets.

[Seekerofshadowlight]

Then it sounds like those kind of undead shouldn't be immune to subdual: do enough of that and the zombie might as well be unconscious.

Yeah not just undead but it seems to me that subdual if it is crushing damage and such needs to work on things. I think it not working on some things may be a hang over from the d20 subdual being bruising mindset. To me it seems like they need to make it more clear it is not just simple bruising damage. I would remove the whole "Subdual damage doesn’t affect objects." line. Not just modify it but remove it, second  I would remove the immunity to subdual damage from anything that can be crushed or broken. Maybe add a line stating something like things that can't go  unconscious take wound damage instead.

[SilvercatMoonpaw]

Those are some good ideas.  In some cases an inability to damage objects should apply to a weapon (bullwhips can't cut rock, for instance) so there should be a weapon quality for that.

[Seekerofshadowlight]

True, you could do a few things add a "Crushing" quality that allows it to hurt objects and critters not harmed by subdual or add a "Less then Lethal" quality if you change subdual so it effects objects.

[Agent 333]

True, you could do a few things add a "Crushing" quality that allows it to hurt objects and critters not harmed by subdual or add a "Less then Lethal" quality if you change subdual so it effects objects.

You mean like the one I suggested three posts up? By that name, in fact.