Maul and war hammer do subdual damage?

[Coyote0273]

Pretty much the answer to "what is the logic behind this" is that there is no logic. The designers did what they thought was cool and would add flavor here. They've admitted that. I disagreed with how that was setup as well, but it wasn't enough to stall my game for more than a half hour while I threw my little GM "WTF" fit. Don't like it, change it or don't use it as well.

Didn't affect my game much in the long run 'cause 90% of the bad guys I throw at my group are standards. And I ignored the subdual doesn't damage objects if it is logical. IE: Brick on a stick, which is what a maul is, will break a table.

[MilitiaJim]

From a combat perspective, unconscious and dead are the same, and there is no reason why that last hit doesn't kill instead of incapacitate, but that's between you and your GM.

From a game mechanics perspective, the different damage types are there to give everyone more interesting choices.

[Seekerofshadowlight]

Yes, I disagree but what I was asking was why the weapons were the ones that didn't work like weapons. I wasn't asking why some hammers did subduel,we have been told that.I was asking what was the logic behind Those Hammers doing so,Not why some hammers did so.Random choice seems to be the answer . As the staff did respond once I thought I would ask.

And I am gonna disagree, on the thought that it does not matter.There is a massive difference between dead and unconscious. Heck the maul and warhammer can't damage objects, can't do critical injuries and the like. There is a world of difference between the two. 

And the reason  topics like this pop up is because some folks are having  issues with aspects of the game. Does that mean it will be changed? No, but it might mean it needs looked at. MAny of you guys saying just house rule it have said you have issues with it. Because ya can house rule everything does not mean some stuff should not be addressed. I was not demanding change or anything, just asking if there was a logic I did not see for picking those 2 hammers for non-lethal.

[MilitiaJim]

And I am gonna disagree, on the thought that it does not matter.There is a massive difference between dead and unconscious.

Well, yes.  If your buddy is unconscious, you have to go rescue him before he becomes dead.  But it doesn't really matter if a hostile combatant is knocked senseless by falling masonry, quietly bleeding out, or screaming about the blood spurting from the remains of his leg; he is out of the fight.

[Bill Whitmore]

Heck the maul and warhammer can't damage objects, can't do critical injuries and the like. There is a world of difference between the two. 

For the record, this particular concern has already been addressed and is in the errata which can be downloaded from the downloads page here: http://www.crafty-games.com/downloads

From the errata:
Subdual Damage (page 211): This damage type’s first bullet is now:
• Certain sources of subdual damage logically damage objects. The GM decides which sources make sense on a case-by-case basis. Hammers should damage windows, for example, even when they inflict subdual damage. Fists, however, are probably — though not always — useless against steel doors.

[Seekerofshadowlight]

For the record, this particular concern has already been addressed and is in the errata which can be downloaded from the downloads page here: http://www.crafty-games.com/downloads

From the errata:
Subdual Damage (page 211): This damage type’s first bullet is now:
• Certain sources of subdual damage logically damage objects. The GM decides which sources make sense on a case-by-case basis. Hammers should damage windows, for example, even when they inflict subdual damage. Fists, however, are probably — though not always — useless against steel doors.

Thanks, I will go download it now. I am sure I will find other things that bug me. Have you every seen a gamer that didn't find something in any system known to man he thought needed fixed ?

[Seekerofshadowlight]

And I am gonna disagree, on the thought that it does not matter.There is a massive difference between dead and unconscious.

Well, yes.  If your buddy is unconscious, you have to go rescue him before he becomes dead.  But it doesn't really matter if a hostile combatant is knocked senseless by falling masonry, quietly bleeding out, or screaming about the blood spurting from the remains of his leg; he is out of the fight.

Just something that bugs the crap out of me is all 

[Krensky]

And I am gonna disagree, on the thought that it does not matter.There is a massive difference between dead and unconscious.

Well, yes.  If your buddy is unconscious, you have to go rescue him before he becomes dead.  But it doesn't really matter if a hostile combatant is knocked senseless by falling masonry, quietly bleeding out, or screaming about the blood spurting from the remains of his leg; he is out of the fight.

Just something that bugs the crap out of me is all 

Consider it this way.

Fantasy Craft is really a narrative game at it's heart. Read the GM section and the Crafty way preface to the errata, or look at Pat and Alex's discussion of how they'd run things. Often rules are written as a shorthand for "typically when X happens, Y occurs but the GM should decide based on what makes the most sense and will be the most fun for the table as a whole."

The whole Standard NPCs who fail a Damage Save triggered by Lethal damage die and those who fail Subdual and Stress triggered checks are unconscious is a prime example. Standard NPCs that fail a damage save are hors de combat is all that matters. I've narrated stress failures with the NPC screaming in terror and throwing itself out a window. They've gibbered in a corner. They've had heart attacks and died. I've had subdual cave in chests, crush windpipes, shatter testicles, etc. I've also have lethal leave standard NPCs just barely alive if the PCs need information that only they could logically have. They typically die soon after unless the PCs do something, but they're not technically dead when they're dropped.

Similarly with Special NPCs. A Special NPC, in effect, only dies because the GM allowed it. See Cheating Death. See spending 4 Action Dice to Cheat Death without a roll. See the Story-Critical NPC quality (my absolute favorite way to keep a villain around. Heck, it's been that way for ages and ages, FC just codifies a few ways to do it. That same NPC is out of the fight when they loose their last wound point though, the same way as if they failed their last Stress or Subdual save.

[Bill Whitmore]

Thanks, I will go download it now. I am sure I will find other things that bug me. Have you every seen a gamer that didn't find something in any system known to man he thought needed fixed ?

I have put a lot of effort into fixing just about every system I have ever run, Fantasy Craft included. 

[Seekerofshadowlight]

Again, thanks for the response.

@Krensky , Yes I guess that would be a good way to look at it. Its just one thing that jumped out at me as backward, but then I am still wrapping my head around the system.I'll take the word of you guys that have played it that it evens out, until I find otherwise anyhow

@ Bill, Good man I think they day most gamers stop "fixing" a system something has broken in their mind. They may need medical attention .

[Sletchman]

Thanks, I will go download it now. I am sure I will find other things that bug me. Have you every seen a gamer that didn't find something in any system known to man he thought needed fixed ?

I'm a big proponent of changing games to suit your needs - I just always try it the "official" way first, to make sure I'm not changing something that actually works really well just because it strikes me as silly.  Hell, in high school I actually wrote a 300-odd page full game using a percentages because I was dissatified with the games I was running (and it was before my exposure to the wide world of options available to me).  I'm currently putting together new races for my next game because many of the FC standards don't fit at all (chiefly the ones with built in social modifiers).  So I totally get fixing the things that bug you.

Pat and Alex have said that the weapons were written the way they are to make combat interesting, and give a real difference between "I hit it with my axe" and "I hit it with my Hammer".  I for one think that their efforts were a great success - there is a tangible difference in tactics and effectiveness for different weapon specialists.  If that doesn't work for you then there isn't much for it beyond "change it to work for your group"* - just make sure you play the game as it is first, you might find you really like the official ruling.

*It's simple too - make mallets do subdual, and warhammer / maul do lethal.  Not a big deal.

[Seekerofshadowlight]

That was kinda why I was asking if there was a logic in picking those two. I am new to the system, it stuck out at me like a sore thumb so I wanted to make sure I was not just missing something.

[Sletchman]

That was kinda why I was asking if there was a logic in picking those two. I am new to the system, it stuck out at me like a sore thumb so I wanted to make sure I was not just missing something.

I'm guessing it's because no one will ever use a Mallet - you can't even use the stance from Hammer Basics with it.  So if it was the only one with a unique use (subdual vs lethal), it'd be a unique and interesting weapon that no one uses.  You're right though - it's a weird choice making a Mallet do Lethal (far moreso then making the Maul do Subdual, IMO).

[MilitiaJim]

They may need medical attention .

Darn right I do.  Whiskey is medicinal.  Find a medical type person to bring me a bottle.   

[Seekerofshadowlight]

I'll see your whiskey and raise you a Bourbon