Maul and war hammer do subdual damage?

[Sletchman]

Here's what I do:

New quality: Punishing: Attacks from this weapon cause massive bruising and fatigue.  An opponent struck with this weapon also suffers 1/2 as much Subdual damage (after DR and Resistances are applied).

Maul and Warhammer deal Lethal damage and gain the Punishing quality.  Could probably do with better wording, but it does for my table.  Alternatively, subdual damages items should fix most of your problems too.

This makes those weapons 50% more effective against Standards at minimum, twice at worst, since they would have to make up to 2 damage saves, or save against the much higher damage level. I would word it as "Special Characters struck by this weapon".

Just curious - do you have also have a problem with the Razor and Scourge?

For what it's worth, I agree - I rule that the bonus only effects Standard NPCs, for both this and the Razor/Scourge.

[Charlie D]

Maybe all blunt weapons should do subdual then? I'm not trying to argue, but if my character is holding a mace in one hand and a war hammer in the other and one kills special characters and one knocks them out that doesn't seem straightforward to me. Heck, most war hammers have a spiked head (that AP) while maces have smaller spikes generally.

You're getting hooked up on the "piercing" part. These weapons have AP because their damage bypasses armor. Chainmail for instance, won't protect you any better than paper against someone using a club or warhammer against you. It's still breaking your bones, rupturing internal organs, etc.

I'm not saying I agree fully with the RAW, my players can quite attest to the not so little tantrum and WTF fit I threw over the stats for some of the weapons. But, as 90% or so of the bad guys I throw at my groups are standards, I just moved passed the stuff I didn't like and handwave the stuff that doesn't make sense (Maul vs Door = Broken Door).

While I'm sorry for your pain I appreciate you sharing it. Maybe I can avoid the same reaction by parsing all I've read and processing it before running my first game.

I really like FC. I want it to be perfect (or as nearly perfect as possible). All this feedback really helps me get to that Zen like state of world building and GMing.

So thanks!

[Crafty_Alex]

Here's my standard answer on this:

If you don't like the subdual damage type, go ahead and change it to lethal. Nothing needs to change beyond that.

Personally, I think that makes the weapons less interesting, but to each (group) his (their) own.

[Crafty_Pat]

Hey everyone,

I was wracking my brain trying to figure out why no one was pointing out the errata, until I realized we hadn't put up the new version yet. 

We completed a draft before Gen Con and then promptly got caught up in show madness, followed by Mistborn madness, and here we are.

So let me take this opportunity to announce the new errata, along with the new Iconics (pre-gens), both of which are available over on the Downloads page.

The errata covers our tweaks to subdual damage, some weapon adjustments, and some other little bits (including an upgrade to Fortune's Fool - thanks, Sketchman!). Errata docs are included for all our current releases.

Thanks!

[Bill Whitmore]

Well, the whole time I was reading this thread I was thinking, "Hey, I know this was covered elsewhere", so I went and found it.  Then I find out the full errata is linked on the second page.  I am going to post it here anyways, for those who may not want to read the whole errata for it (and yes, this is what ended up in the errata.

People, STOP! Seriously, stop. This is clearly one of those cases where roleplaying games have the upper hand, and we get to embrace that fact. Here are the facts...

• It's true that certain sources of subdual damage - though not all - should be able to break objects.
• It's also ludicrous to consider changes to a fully functional character vs. character combat system, or to undermine the utility, strength, and grace of the weapon listings, to solve the issue.
• If left alone, this problem will worsen in the modern era.

Here's what I've suggested to Alex and what I assume will become the root basis of any errata on this front - because it has the smallest footprint and again, it embraces the strengths of our medium.

• The first bullet of subdual damage becomes: "Certain sources of subdual damage logically damage objects. The GM decides which sources make sense on a case-by-case basis. Hammers should damage windows, for example, even when they inflict subdual damage. Fists, however, are probably - though not always - useless against steel doors."
• The Skeletal template gains the Achilles' heel (blunt) quality.

[Sletchman]

The errata covers our tweaks to subdual damage, some weapon adjustments, and some other little bits (including an upgrade to Fortune's Fool - thanks, Sketchman!). Errata docs are included for all our current releases.

Thanks!

Neat!  I've never been proactively responsible for an errata before.  The new line in subdual should fix a lot of the item damage issues folks have been having (inc. with the Hammer feat chain), and I'm a fan of the improvement to the Mages gamebreaker, too.

Also, it's an "L", not a "K", easy mistake to make though.

[ArawnNox]

Didnt we come up with some sort of subdual achelles heel for objects last time we had this discussion?

[Coyote0273]

Here's what I do:

New quality: Punishing: Attacks from this weapon cause massive bruising and fatigue.  An opponent struck with this weapon also suffers 1/2 as much Subdual damage (after DR and Resistances are applied).

Maul and Warhammer deal Lethal damage and gain the Punishing quality.  Could probably do with better wording, but it does for my table.  Alternatively, subdual damages items should fix most of your problems too.

This makes those weapons 50% more effective against Standards at minimum, twice at worst, since they would have to make up to 2 damage saves, or save against the much higher damage level. I would word it as "Special Characters struck by this weapon".

Just curious - do you have also have a problem with the Razor and Scourge?

For what it's worth, I agree - I rule that the bonus only effects Standard NPCs, for both this and the Razor/Scourge.

Honestly, never had anyone use either of those before, so they've never entered my notice. In general I would go with the 'special only', unless I was running one of my epic style balls to the wall menace level 5 games, where the extra damage helps to balance a little better.

[Crafty_Pat]

Also, it's an "L", not a "K", easy mistake to make though.

Sorry about that. The "e" makes it look like a "k" to me.

Didnt we come up with some sort of subdual achelles heel for objects last time we had this discussion?

Yup. That's it there in the errata.

[pawsplay]

Hey everyone,

I was wracking my brain trying to figure out why no one was pointing out the errata, until I realized we hadn't put up the new version yet. 

We completed a draft before Gen Con and then promptly got caught up in show madness, followed by Mistborn madness, and here we are.

So let me take this opportunity to announce the new errata, along with the new Iconics (pre-gens), both of which are available over on the Downloads page.

The errata covers our tweaks to subdual damage, some weapon adjustments, and some other little bits (including an upgrade to Fortune's Fool - thanks, Sketchman!). Errata docs are included for all our current releases.

Thanks!

Sneak attack can only augment certain damage types now. Does that mean you can't convert sneak attack damage? e.g. Lava-Born

I've always been perplexed by the War Hammer being two-handed, since, first of all, that doesn't refer to a historical weapon called a war hammer, and second, because the maul is already a heavy, two-handed weapon shaped like a hammer.

[Crafty_Alex]

Sneak attack can only augment certain damage types now. Does that mean you can't convert sneak attack damage? e.g. Lava-Born

Yes.

I've always been perplexed by the War Hammer being two-handed, since, first of all, that doesn't refer to a historical weapon called a war hammer, and second, because the maul is already a heavy, two-handed weapon shaped like a hammer.

It's this, which was commonly called a warhammer as used in the fields of Europe:

[pawsplay]

Is it intended that the short-handled version be covered by the Pick entry? The actual writeup describes the pick as a mining tool.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horseman%27s_pick

Of course, it's a small matter to give the mallet an armor-piercing upgrade, but that actually wields a less effective weapon that is more expensive.

[Charlie D]

Here's my standard answer on this:

If you don't like the subdual damage type, go ahead and change it to lethal. Nothing needs to change beyond that.

Personally, I think that makes the weapons less interesting, but to each (group) his (their) own.

Okay, works for me. I will try the rules as written first and see what it is like.

I realize that this topic had been gone over in other threads (I read several of them) but it really helped clarify the rules for me and I got some updated errata out of it! Thanks everyone who provided info and thanks Crafty for jumping in with answers as well.

[Crafty_Alex]

Is it intended that the short-handled version be covered by the Pick entry? The actual writeup describes the pick as a mining tool.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horseman%27s_pick

Honestly Paws, I wrote that nearly 3 years ago so I can't say with perfect recollection what it was. The pick is basically a horseman's pick - you hit them with the pointy end.

[Sletchman]

Here's what I do:

New quality: Punishing: Attacks from this weapon cause massive bruising and fatigue.  An opponent struck with this weapon also suffers 1/2 as much Subdual damage (after DR and Resistances are applied).

Maul and Warhammer deal Lethal damage and gain the Punishing quality.  Could probably do with better wording, but it does for my table.  Alternatively, subdual damages items should fix most of your problems too.

This makes those weapons 50% more effective against Standards at minimum, twice at worst, since they would have to make up to 2 damage saves, or save against the much higher damage level. I would word it as "Special Characters struck by this weapon".

Just curious - do you have also have a problem with the Razor and Scourge?

For what it's worth, I agree - I rule that the bonus only effects Standard NPCs, for both this and the Razor/Scourge.

Honestly, never had anyone use either of those before, so they've never entered my notice. In general I would go with the 'special only', unless I was running one of my epic style balls to the wall menace level 5 games, where the extra damage helps to balance a little better.

Fair enough.  Also I just realised in my previous post I wrote that the bonus only effects Standards, but I meant Specials (obviously, since I was agreeing with you) - I was just having a "special" day...