Maul and war hammer do subdual damage?

[Charlie D]

I did some search-fu and read about subdual damage but I want to make sure I understand.

Weapon damage (p. 177) has me confused. Why are some weapons listed as doing subdual damage? Is this an option and it can do lethal without the -4 to hit and ½ damage (p. 209)? From the threads I read, it appears that it can’t.

Because a flail does subdual damage which means it can’t harm objects but it has AP 4. And a maul and war hammer are listed as subdual damage (massive and AP 2 respectively). Neither of these weapons could damage objects (p. 211). That can’t be right, can it? How could a subdual weapon (no damage to objects) pierce armor (which is an object itself I assume)?

I assume I’m missing a rule somewhere, but damage (p. 176) just says the weapon’s base damage. It doesn’t say that a weapon listed as subdual can do either lethal or subdual damage.

Also, just a small observation. Lethal damage is not listed on pages 210-211. I believe I know what it is and what is does but it really should be listed I’d think to dispel confusion.

If mauls and war hammers do subdual and can’t damage objects I’ll have to create a campaign quality to fix that I suppose. I can't actually think of a way to do subdual damage with a maul or war hammer without holding back on the attack. Any hit that gets through armor would break bone and crush organs not cause just inflict bruises.

[SilvercatMoonpaw]

If I remember correctly last time there was a debate over this the Main Crafties said that they figured a GM would just wave the "subdual doesn't work on objects" in the right circumstances.  So a good GM would let you use a Maul to break down a door or something, not so much cut a rope.

As for having Armor Piercing I think that represents not so much "getting through" as "some of the sheer force of the blow will get through and injure the target".

[ludomastro]

Hello Charlie!  

Yeah, this is perhaps the most hotly debated topic about the FC damage system.  The short version (my particular take on it at least) is that the Crafty folks purposely bent reality so that certain weapons would do subdual and thus be slightly different options for characters.

One way to flavor this is that the subdual represent internal trauma not immediate loss of blood.

Also, the AP represents that armor doesn't do much good against a giant maul smacking into your ribs.  The sheer force just carries through.

Also, keep in mind that subdual damage doesn't affect vitality.  It goes into it's own pool and does a some of death-spiral effect on special characters (There is no difference to the standard foot soldier: lethal, he dies, subdual, he lives for now.)

Now, as to the damage switching rule, look on page 209, under Damage Types -> Damage Conversion.

As for subdual weapons not affecting objects, I use the rule of common sense, which trumps all other rules at my table.  If you hit a glass window with a flail, it will break.  If you hit it will a sap, it MIGHT break, but probably not.

Yes, Lethal damage is not listed as the Crafty folks had the design philosophy that if it was intuitively understood (as you did) that they didn't need to list it.  Based on player feedback/requests, all future Mastercraft poducts (SpyCraft 3.0, etc.) will be more defined.

Hopefully, that helps.

[Charlie D]

I appreciate the feedback. I'm trying to avoid things that are going to irritate my players or require hand-waveum. So far, I haven't found much in FC that will annoy my players but the weapon subdual will.

A mace does lethal damage but a war hammer does subdual. A mallet does lethal but a maul does subdual. Just doesn't jive. I really hope Crafty makes an official change to the weapon damage (and maybe lower the weight of some of the bigger weapons, 14 or 15 pounds is unbelievably heavy).

Again, at least I can campaign quality it away if it becomes a big problem.

[ludomastro]

I understand.  That's why it's Your Dungeon, Your Dragon, Your Way (tm)

If you are willing to devote some time to Search you can probably find several homebrewed campaign qualities or (perhaps, more useful) weapon qualities.

[pawsplay]

The weapon weights have already been adjusted once. I would still like them to become realistic (since ballpark figures are readily available for 90% of the weapons listed) but they're at least less absurd. Some of the weapons also received revised damage types in the second printing, such as the rapier, which went from stress damage to lethal with AP. I thought the rapier change was a decided improvement, especially as the Fencing feat chain still allows you to switch damage types.

However, the subdual from mauls thing was never really addressed, probably because no one was able to furnish a really good solution other than "change most things to lethal." having had some time to think about it, I think I've come around to thinking the line about subdual damage not affecting objects should just be nixed, and the rules for damaging objects specifying that some damage types might have half or no effect depending on the nature of the object. In that approach, the weapon type such as Blunt or Edged would be more relevant than the damage type. Objects already handle damage saves in a different way anyway, so I think altering those rules would require the least changes elsewhere in the system. In fact, it would basically work as it would if you didn't realize that objects couldn't take subdual damage.

[SilvercatMoonpaw]

I definitely agree that objects should take subdual damage, or that they automatically convert it to lethal.  The idea that objects can't take it I would say is based on a misconception of what happens when you punch an object: I think it's just either DR or Resistance so high normal punches don't do anything.  But a hit with something that causes a lot of damage period would do something to the object.

[Sletchman]

Here's what I do:

New quality: Punishing: Attacks from this weapon cause massive bruising and fatigue.  An opponent struck with this weapon also suffers 1/2 as much Subdual damage (after DR and Resistances are applied).

Maul and Warhammer deal Lethal damage and gain the Punishing quality.  Could probably do with better wording, but it does for my table.  Alternatively, subdual damages items should fix most of your problems too.

[Charlie D]

I don't like to change things to a game I haven't played yet. However, is there any reason why subdual damage for some weapon and lethal for others? Is there a balance issue or a feat chain or something else I should know about before making any changes?

Personally, I think all weapons except the sap doing Lethal damage makes the most sense. Maybe wooden weapons could be optional (do either lethal or subdual).

Also, a person can kick down a door or punch out a window (wear gloves though). How do the secret police in Spycraft bash down doors? Do they have to have a battering ram? So maybe half damage to objects from subdual damage?

[ludomastro]

The secret police in my games break down doors at the speed of plot.   

But I understand your concern.  Something to keep in mind that may not have been obvious at first.

While lethal wears down vitality and then wounds, Subdual does not.  Subdual is a completely separate route to take down a special character.  The weapons use different damage types to represent that alternate take down method.

[Krensky]

It's to differentiate the weapons. As Silvercat said, let weapons doing subdual effect objects when it makes sense, Pat or Alex said as much on this once before.

As for the secret police? Well weapons were different in SC2.0 and typically the bad guys kicked in the door because the GC said they kicked in the door. At least that's how I run things. Kicking in the door is scene establishing most of the time. If the PCs took steps to make said door harder to kick in, then I use the rules, but typically they kick in the door and we roll initiative.

[Coyote0273]

One thing to also remember is that Subdual is treated just like regular damage against Standard NPCs. It's just as deadly to them as anything that does lethal. The way I explained it to my group, and we accepted, is it's subdual because it's cracking bones, etc, not actually piercing your sides and spilling your guts on the ground. Fighting with a broken arm or ribs is possible, painful but possible, whereas fighting while tripping over your intestines is much less likely.

[Coyote0273]

Here's what I do:

New quality: Punishing: Attacks from this weapon cause massive bruising and fatigue.  An opponent struck with this weapon also suffers 1/2 as much Subdual damage (after DR and Resistances are applied).

Maul and Warhammer deal Lethal damage and gain the Punishing quality.  Could probably do with better wording, but it does for my table.  Alternatively, subdual damages items should fix most of your problems too.

This makes those weapons 50% more effective against Standards at minimum, twice at worst, since they would have to make up to 2 damage saves, or save against the much higher damage level. I would word it as "Special Characters struck by this weapon".

[Charlie D]

One thing to also remember is that Subdual is treated just like regular damage against Standard NPCs. It's just as deadly to them as anything that does lethal. The way I explained it to my group, and we accepted, is it's subdual because it's cracking bones, etc, not actually piercing your sides and spilling your guts on the ground. Fighting with a broken arm or ribs is possible, painful but possible, whereas fighting while tripping over your intestines is much less likely.

Maybe all blunt weapons should do subdual then? I'm not trying to argue, but if my character is holding a mace in one hand and a war hammer in the other and one kills special characters and one knocks them out that doesn't seem straightforward to me. Heck, most war hammers have a spiked head (that AP) while maces have smaller spikes generally.

Same with swinging a mallet versus a maul. One Lethal for the smaller mallet and Subdual for the maul?

I get the blunt force trauma though. Still seems odd that some blunt does lethal and some subdual. I can live with subdual for blunt weapons, it just seems all of them should inflict subdual damage except for the pick (pointy).

[Coyote0273]

Maybe all blunt weapons should do subdual then? I'm not trying to argue, but if my character is holding a mace in one hand and a war hammer in the other and one kills special characters and one knocks them out that doesn't seem straightforward to me. Heck, most war hammers have a spiked head (that AP) while maces have smaller spikes generally.

You're getting hooked up on the "piercing" part. These weapons have AP because their damage bypasses armor. Chainmail for instance, won't protect you any better than paper against someone using a club or warhammer against you. It's still breaking your bones, rupturing internal organs, etc.

I'm not saying I agree fully with the RAW, my players can quite attest to the not so little tantrum and WTF fit I threw over the stats for some of the weapons. But, as 90% or so of the bad guys I throw at my groups are standards, I just moved passed the stuff I didn't like and handwave the stuff that doesn't make sense (Maul vs Door = Broken Door).