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Author Topic: Campaign qualities question  (Read 685 times)
Arceom
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« on: April 16, 2012, 10:48:48 AM »

Hello!,

Just a quick question. Let's say I want to make a campaign quality permanent (i.e Deadly combat). Would this reduce my GM starting action dice by 3 (deadly combat AD cost)?
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Theodoran
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« Reply #1 on: April 16, 2012, 10:58:16 AM »

Not at all,

the cost of action die is not use when you have choose to make a campaign quality as permanent. I'm sure I read that but I don't know the page.

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Bhurano
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« Reply #2 on: April 16, 2012, 11:11:07 AM »

Hi there and welcome to the forum, Smiley

Theodoran is right that if you define a campaign quality as permanent nobody pays any Action Dice.

You pay only with Action Dice if you want to "switch on" a campaign quality temporarily for one scene.

As an example you want to make the life of the casters a bit more dangerous and decide to enable "Corrupting Magic" which would cost anyone - the GM or the player who uses it 3 Action Dice.

It is a good system to use for an GM to throw something unexpected at his players... and in the hands of a player it can represent a streak of luck, making something easier or turn the tide of an conflict. Consider the possibility that your group is in a tight spot, without armor and surrounded by the Big Bad's Minions and you decide to activate "Beefy Heroes" - which costs only 1 Action Die. Suddenly a hard or atrocious battle turns into something more manageable because any Special Character/PC gets his Strength modifier as DR... Take that Fate! Grin

I hope that helps and the difference is explained in detail from page 322 forward.

Have fun. Grin
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Arceom
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« Reply #3 on: April 16, 2012, 11:32:59 AM »

Thank you very much for the response guys! =)

It's clear now
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Krensky
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« Reply #4 on: April 16, 2012, 12:22:07 PM »

It's also worth noting that you only have to pay the dice for a temporary quality applied on the fly. If it's a scripted part of a scene it's 'free'.
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We can lick gravity, but sometimes the paperwork is overwhelming. - Werner von Braun
Right now you have no idea how lucky you are that I am not a sociopath. - A sign seen above my desk.
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paddyfool
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« Reply #5 on: April 16, 2012, 12:29:16 PM »

in the hands of a player

It's also worth noting that you only have to pay the dice for a temporary quality applied on the fly. If it's a scripted part of a scene it's 'free'.

These are two things of which I was not aware - that players might have access to this, or that this would be free in a scripted scene.  The former has interesting ramifications, and rather makes me want to play a Chance-feat heavy build at some point... although, as always with such game-changing abilities, some discretion may be required.  (It would seem one of the most potent uses of AD available, going far beyond what you can enable with Narrative Control...)
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SilvercatMoonpaw
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« Reply #6 on: April 16, 2012, 12:59:25 PM »

Yeah, but in what other game can a player scream "MORTAL KOMBAT!" and then have everyone instantly start flipping out and running up the walls? Evil
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Krensky
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« Reply #7 on: April 16, 2012, 01:24:48 PM »

While you can treat them that way, as written non-GM players can't activate campaign qualities.
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We can lick gravity, but sometimes the paperwork is overwhelming. - Werner von Braun
Right now you have no idea how lucky you are that I am not a sociopath. - A sign seen above my desk.
There's no upside in screwing with things you can't explain. - Captain Roy Montgomery
SilvercatMoonpaw
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« Reply #8 on: April 16, 2012, 05:17:29 PM »

Oh.  I got confused and thought there was something I'd missed.

It'd still be fun for an over-the-top comedic campaign.
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Bhurano
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« Reply #9 on: April 17, 2012, 03:02:29 AM »

Ah damn, I got that confused to. Tongue Sorry I mixed things up. Tongue

It is a houserule in my group, just because the thought that the heroes can dictate fate and go on like bare-chested vikings or going all Wire-Fu is to damn awesome to waste it. Think about it, the heros are awesome enough to hack the story. Grin

Also because I go hard on them in combat scenarios and try my best to get some chunks out of them, it is only fair that they can cause enemy spellcasters to go haywire by using their abilitys or turning some unsuspecting mooks into the newest targets of the heroes newfound parkours skills. Evens out in my book.

@Krensky

BTW your Chymist Specialization is awesome. Thx for that one. Smiley
« Last Edit: April 17, 2012, 03:06:41 AM by Bhurano » Logged
paddyfool
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« Reply #10 on: April 17, 2012, 05:42:22 PM »

Hmmm....

Now I'm wondering how well-balanced something like "You may spend action dice to activate campaign qualities as if you were the GM" would be as an ability.  Could be fun and fitting for a (probably spellcasting) Expert or Master class based around warping the stuff of reality, or perhaps as the third in a three-chance-feat tree.

Nerfs and restrictions to consider might include limits /scene or adventure, such as "you may only activate any given campaign quality 1/adventure" to stop spamming of one effect constantly.  Another balancing factor might be having the GM gain action dice equal to those you spend.  In which case, it might work quite well as a single chance feat or origin ability - you can warp the world in ways that benefit you, but something tends to kick your arse for it, or the arses of those around you (whether in a Rand Al Thor way, a John Constantine-ish way, or a Tyler's Clone way).
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LordKruelos
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« Reply #11 on: April 17, 2012, 06:25:25 PM »

Hmmm....

Now I'm wondering how well-balanced something like "You may spend action dice to activate campaign qualities as if you were the GM" would be as an ability.  Could be fun and fitting for a (probably spellcasting) Expert or Master class based around warping the stuff of reality, or perhaps as the third in a three-chance-feat tree.

Nerfs and restrictions to consider might include limits /scene or adventure, such as "you may only activate any given campaign quality 1/adventure" to stop spamming of one effect constantly.  Another balancing factor might be having the GM gain action dice equal to those you spend.  In which case, it might work quite well as a single chance feat or origin ability - you can warp the world in ways that benefit you, but something tends to kick your arse for it, or the arses of those around you (whether in a Rand Al Thor way, a John Constantine-ish way, or a Tyler's Clone way).

I mean, I'd call that a ritual complex check way before I made it an origin.
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paddyfool
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« Reply #12 on: April 18, 2012, 01:45:16 AM »

I mean, I'd call that a ritual complex check way before I made it an origin.

Sounds doable as well - could you spell out how you might run this?

Also, I suppose we should differentiate between the three ways to see this power being used by players: 1) As part of collaborative storytelling; 2) As something that tends to happen around their character for some reason, but which their character has little or no control over (e.g. Rand Al Thor's Ta'veren status or John Constantine's synchronicity... although both might be better modelled by a mechanic related to narrative control, e.g. getting narrative control at a discount, but granting the GM action dice each time you use this discount); 3) As reality-shaping powers which their character actively directs.  

Each of these three features might fit well in some games, but would also not fit well in other games.
« Last Edit: April 18, 2012, 01:48:55 AM by paddyfool » Logged
LordKruelos
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« Reply #13 on: April 18, 2012, 09:42:15 AM »

Also, I suppose we should differentiate between the three ways to see this power being used by players: 1) As part of collaborative storytelling; 2) As something that tends to happen around their character for some reason, but which their character has little or no control over although both might be better modelled by a mechanic related to narrative control, e.g. getting narrative control at a discount, but granting the GM action dice each time you use this discount); 3) As reality-shaping powers which their character actively directs.  

In terms of 1) I'd handle this by allowing the players to request "Campaign Quality X" until the end of scene, and if the GM approves, the group pays 1/2 the AD cost 2) Mechanically, I'd treat that as a Subplot + liberal use of narrative control dice 3) That would probably count as some kind of reskinning of magic or psionics.

I mean, I'd call that a ritual complex check way before I made it an origin.

Sounds doable as well - could you spell out how you might run this?
In my home games, I use rituals as narrative devices / ticking timebombs that the PCs have to interact or contend with more than I use them as PC-initiated ones, but that's really just a difference of approach.

From a GM's perspective, I guess step 1 is the Who/What/When/Where/Why to explain the ritual's place in-setting. Most importantly, I'd want to identify what's powering the ritual -- is it a whole valley full of believers? Is it blood? etc.

If a player were to initiate a ritual, regardless of the effect if successful I would have it follow a format similar to this, with a lot of room for variation within each step:

1) Research the details/requirements/specifics of the ritual (likely using Investigate, possibly multiple Investigate checks, possibly requiring traveling/finding lost knowledge/whatever to allow the character to attempt the Investigate/Research in the first place)

2) Acquire resources/relics for the ritual (From as simple as a Haggle check to as complicated as questing to locate key components, etc.) -- lot of room for variation here

3) Preparation (Drawing sigils, preparing the site/sacrifice, or even waiting for the weather to be right or planets to align) -- again, plenty of room for variation, but you could easily use this a skill check for this -- Crafting, Spellcraft, or even Survival might be appropriate, depending on the ritual.

4) Execution (Depending on the complexity and length of the ritual, this could be a single check, this could be a series of checks. Impress, Spellcraft and Resolve would be the skills I'd be most likely to call for, especially Resolve for longer rituals since concentration and attention to detail are kinda important)

For example, in my home game, the PCs have a plan to call a demonic avatar (The Reaper from Cleansing of Black Spur) and entrap it, sealing it away from the mortal plane. In my notes preparing for this, I've basically set it up using the above format:

Research - the Sage has been studying the Infernum they captured as part of that adventure to learn how to accomplish the calling and binding.
Acquisition - to call and hedge the demon while finishing the ritual of binding, the PCs need to obtain Demon-Spires crafted out of rare metal.
Preparation - Once the PCs are ready, they'll have to find a suitable place to conduct the ritual, prepare the trap, align the demon spires, draw their protection wards, etc.
Execution - I'm going to handle this as multiple checks -- 1 to conduct the calling, then a TBD number of successful Resolve checks to complete the ritual while the rest of the PCs will be battling the demon to hold it at bay long enough to give the Sage time to complete the ritual.

The result at the end (or potentially anywhere in the middle) of the ritual can be whatever I want it to be -- continuing the example once the demon is called, it will immediately trigger a Dramatic Scene. You could just as easily rule that after the first of the Execution checks, any campaign quality is in effect until the end of the ritual or scene. In general, I'd handle this on a case-by-case basis rather than trying to over-burden it with specific rules
« Last Edit: April 18, 2012, 09:45:46 AM by LordKruelos » Logged
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