When something is just too big for a feat

[The_Grand_User]

I know I go on about Truly Massive quite a bit but I have my reasons.

I lament the removal of Truely Massive as well, but maybe they might put it back in for some mini suppliment.

[Crafty_Pat]

I know I go on about Truly Massive quite a bit but I have my reasons.

I lament the removal of Truely Massive as well, but maybe they might put it back in for some mini suppliment.

Not unless we either a) figure out how to decouple it from a lot of the Size rules (and really, what would be the point?), or b) charge a lot more for it - like, on the order of 2-3 feat slots (which is something we've never done before0.

[Morgenstern]

I always figured it would be easy enough to restore truely massive as long as it was done as a seperate feat for each race that accesses it - one for Drakes, one for Giants, one for rootwalkers. That way some of the little details like your resulting footprint could be spelled out specifically for each species. That could all be folded back into a single feat I suppose, but it was that lack of neccessary supporting detail that troubled me the most about the innital version.

[Crafty_Pat]

Once you get into that detail, you see how broke-y that feat really is. Thus the costing issue.

[Morgenstern]

Once you get into that detail, you see how broke-y that feat really is. Thus the costing issue.

Interesting. Well, the tools for presenting an increased cost include~

• Putting it further into a tree (not really satisfying in this case since you kind of want such a transformative effect accessible at level 1)
• Requiring a sacrifice of 2 attribute points (used frequently in species feats to buy an entire feat worth of additional benefit)
• Sacrifice of a starting action die (also common in species feats to buy the substantial advantage of flight or other massive bodily transformation)

Perhaps an acceptible solution will re-appear at some point .

[The_Grand_User]

So as not to clutter the Review thread...

I know I go on about Truly Massive quite a bit but I have my reasons.

I lament the removal of Truely Massive as well, but maybe they might put it back in for some mini suppliment.

Not unless we either a) figure out how to decouple it from a lot of the Size rules (and really, what would be the point?), or b) charge a lot more for it - like, on the order of 2-3 feat slots (which is something we've never done before0.

I was thinking more of a Campaign Quality or a collection of them that'd basically change what's considered the base line. The Truely Massive is just one example of something that may be too big for a single feat, and using 2 or 3 feats for a single character option is just a bit clunky, and they're things that probably shouldn't be attached to any particular class. And I'm sure there's lots of other things you'd like to fit in, but can't in a single feat.

So rather than try to to put a character option into too small of a character option slot. Just define a bigger character option slot that some games can use if they want to or not. Let's call them Distinctions for now. They'd be the "Large" if you'd consider Feats as "Medium" and Proficiencies/Tricks as "Small", but otherwise work the same. Maybe grant one to a character at 10th and 20th levels, and maybe even at 1st level.

This might also help there few concepts of "Epic Levels starting at 1st".

(as for precedence of a CQ granting a new kind of character option slot, Sorcerery and Miracles kind of do, just their slots are in line with the rest of the character options, so they can be used or not on a per character basis, while this one isn't in line with others, so would be granted to all characters)

[Catodon]

I know I go on about Truly Massive quite a bit but I have my reasons.

I lament the removal of Truely Massive as well, but maybe they might put it back in for some mini suppliment.

Not unless we either a) figure out how to decouple it from a lot of the Size rules (and really, what would be the point?), or b) charge a lot more for it - like, on the order of 2-3 feat slots (which is something we've never done before0.

I agree; decoupling from the Size rules gives you something like Larger Than Life. While I might now consider pricing Truly Masive at 2 feats in the privacy of my own game, breaking down limits like this ends in people getting carried away and breaking the game.

[SilvercatMoonpaw]

Maybe they'll come up with something when it's time for the Epic rules.  Seems to me that's the best place for something like this.

[Catodon]

Once you get into that detail, you see how broke-y that feat really is. Thus the costing issue.

Interesting. Well, the tools for presenting an increased cost include~

• Putting it further into a tree (not really satisfying in this case since you kind of want such a transformative effect accessible at level 1)
• Requiring a sacrifice of 2 attribute points (used frequently in species feats to buy an entire feat worth of additional benefit)
• Sacrifice of a starting action die (also common in species feats to buy the substantial advantage of flight or other massive bodily transformation)

Perhaps an acceptible solution will re-appear at some point .

The tree solution puts us closer to the clunky LA/Race class of 3.5 this might be a balanced solution but is it a satisfying one?
Would the other proposed ideas, or something like them, be able to contribute to a balanced solution, well that depends of relative wieghts in play. I throw down the gauntlet to fellow fans who do have regular tabletop games.
Maybe, just maybe though we have found a limit to the system. All games have limits the authors of fantasy Craft are to be congratulated for changes to rules such as strength/size, types, weapon scaling etc. that have broadened PC horizons beyond what d20 could traditionally handle well.
Me, I'm not expecting an official version ever.

[The_Grand_User]

I made another thread for this conversation, so Catodon could get on with his reviews

[Catodon]

THanks all. I will be largely rewriting this section and am glad for the input. I love the internet, to be able to source other fans and to hear the thoughts of a game's authors is gold, I would have killed for this kind of input back in the 80's and 90's. Commonplace miracles
I'll be keeping an eye on grand users new thread. Truly massive, its like 1st ed. AD&D's assassin its an idea that just will not die long after it's remove from the official game.

Anyway if anyone has other thoughts on the transition so I can get this section back on track I'd love to hear them.

[Crafty_Pat]

I made another thread for this conversation, so Catodon could get on with his reviews

...and I've split and merged the threads accordingly.

Sorry for the interruption Catodon!

[The_Grand_User]

Heh, thanks.

Other examples that might use this might be a demigod like Hercules, archmage (not a class, since it shoudl be available for all the casting classes), Robin Hood's skill with a bow and similar exemplars, probably a lot of the crazier martial artist type stuff that I'm not familiar with, and maybe even shapechanging.

Sure, some of those could be represented using the current rules, just trying to get ideas out there.

[Morgenstern]

Many class ability slots are larger than a feat. The 10/20 abilites are significantly larger than two feats. The problem in this case is you want the benefit accessible at character start, and while characters have a lot of resources,  that's still a big bite out of them.

I'd want to go over what Huge actually gets you (compared to Large) because the medium-to-large shift is only 1 design point. The idea that the large-to-huge shift by itself is worth more than 2.5-3 design points (cost of  feat) seems a little harsh. That the large-to-huge shift with some supporting benefits is more than 3 points I could see, but it shouldn't be that difficult to include a few flavorful drawbacks to even the package up.

While Truely Massive was over powered and caused min/maxers to gravitate when it was released, keep in mind most of the benefits of Size other than max wound multipler have been cut in half since then. the new Huge is the old Large in many ways.

[SilvercatMoonpaw]

Other examples that might use this might be a demigod like Hercules, archmage (not a class, since it shoudl be available for all the casting classes), Robin Hood's skill with a bow and similar exemplars, probably a lot of the crazier martial artist type stuff that I'm not familiar with, and maybe even shapechanging.

Legend Slots: spend them on things to give your character that one defining trait that myths and legends latch on to.  Super-strength, super-weapon-skill, wire-fu moves, great size, god-like ability to gain followers, an artifact, etc.