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Author Topic: What if Heroism was against the law...?  (Read 1459 times)
Bhurano
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« Reply #15 on: September 07, 2011, 02:08:31 AM »

A quick question: What's with all the beings on both sides who have fallen to the propaganda and take this premise? I mean it's one thing to kick the evil bastard, but quite another if you kick the indoctrinated innocent or the one who wants to believe in it.

Think about WW II and sadly far to many germans who believed the propaganda and where mostly left in the dark - e.g. the commoners so to speak. Sure some or even many had a bad feeling about several things and it didn't helped that all to vocal people outright vanished or worse. But let's tone it down to a small city or a hamlet... and don't forget that medieval rulers and the gentry in general where perceived as the betters compared to the lowborn. Sounds ridiculous to us today and may be a reason why my group responds most of the time - at best - neutral with regards to the gentry and highborn.

So many people might swallow the propaganda - at least in the beginning - and what's worse some "heroes" might feel the need to help the other side... out of goodwill or so... Granted this support might vanish after some really horrible deeds done, but who says that these will happen. Even worse if both sides employ lots of spys or even some kind of secret police to further their goals.

Just to give you a impression how worse a secret police can be: I grew up in the GDR (German Democratic Republic) up to the age of 9, after that you know what happened. But we had an agency best known as Staatssicherheit (short: STASI) they employed all kind of methods to keep the people in line. One of their strategys: Using civilians as IM (Inoffizieller Mitarbeiter) best translated as UE (Unofficial Employee) and these guys kept their ears on the ground so to speak. Sometimes they were employed to target their environment and sometimes to shadow specific targets. Sometimes they even tried to use children against their familys in this way.
My father did his time in the NVA (Nationale Volksarmee, translated as National People Army) and there he met a guy (an actor fresh from the art school) who mouthed of a little bit to loud and bang he was in for questioning. My father the guy that he is tried to tone things down so that the guy wouldn't get into trouble. He told me that he said that the guy made a joke, nothing more. But he wasn't the only one who got questioned, and some must have said something else. And therefore this guy vanished over night... literally. Remind you, they busted him for joking around and they disallowed him to work as an actor. My father supposed he got jailed, either in a military prison or worse in one of the Stasi prisons.
But that wasn't the end of the story. He got cited again for further "questioning". He had to endure questions like why his telling of the event where not like some of the others. Sounds not so tough, until they do it for some hours without pause. And he wasn't he only one to be cited again. This got on and on for a while until they let him get away. But after that they kept tabs on him and some of my family - two years that he knew of. And back then my father was a farmer/rancher kind of dude, nothing important so to speak... but they threatened to make his life hell and then some more worse. That event taught him not to trust anyone. In the GDR it was sometimes quite literally against the law to be heroic or upstanding.
And there are cases far worse than his little "encounter" with the STASI. So a secret police or spys keeping tabs on certain people might freak out many.
Also they could through organizations like this trying to supress the opinion or will of the general populace. It might work only for a limited time, and it might also backfire big time, but nonetheless. If someone is desperate or confident enough, they might think about such things. Add in things like magic and spys and other organizations are a very big players in the infotrade business.

I also second Mister Andersen's comment that widespread political assassinations on both sides would quite likely start before the ink on the parchment is dry... hell, even the rumor of such a treaty could unleash bad things on anybody stupid enough to suggest it.

Also - on another note - how interact the goody-two-shoes and the evil-afoot realms in your supposed setting? Also note that the guys who think of themselves as good can pretty easily enact pretty mean things in the name of good (point in case the Inquisition). So the bady guys might have a reason to do their "bad" stuff. Are there treatys in place on borders that they share, like non-agression, peace or even trade treatys? Also which side honors those treatys? If they are constantly engaged in balls-to-the-walls warfare several options might be of the table... but if there are only raids things might be far better to forge a treaty... but the victims of the raids would heartily disagree. Grin

Just my two cents. Smiley
« Last Edit: September 07, 2011, 07:52:26 AM by Bhurano » Logged
glimmerrat
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« Reply #16 on: September 07, 2011, 09:42:02 AM »

That's a 'quick' question?  Shocked
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MilitiaJim
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« Reply #17 on: September 07, 2011, 10:00:08 AM »

I like the idea of some good members of the Evil coalition helping hunt down the notably evil in their midst.

How modern is the tech and politics?  We're not talking about Pershing's raid in Mexico, this is more like the French & Indian Wars of the 1750s?  Or the City-State fighting on the Italian peninsula during the Renascence?
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« Reply #18 on: September 07, 2011, 12:11:41 PM »

@glimmerrat

ehh, I got carried away and just kept going... happens sometimes. Sorry. Grin
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TheTSKoala
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« Reply #19 on: September 07, 2011, 12:16:20 PM »

I like the idea of some good members of the Evil coalition helping hunt down the notably evil in their midst.

How modern is the tech and politics?  We're not talking about Pershing's raid in Mexico, this is more like the French & Indian Wars of the 1750s?  Or the City-State fighting on the Italian peninsula during the Renascence?

Something a kin to the Ming Dynasty revolution and the coup d'état of 1641 Ireland.  Black powder is becoming more available, the social dynamics are well established beyond tribes.. kingdoms and such.

...as for Bhurano.. did you know one of my Law Professors?  I swear.. the same style.  "Okay.  Small quiz."  ..which turned out to be a 14 page thesis on the application of an amendment.   I will reply.. I'm just still reading. Smiley
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TheTSKoala
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« Reply #20 on: September 07, 2011, 12:57:52 PM »

Bhurano.. first off.. that wasn't 2 cents.  That was like tree fitty.  lol.  Second.. thank you for that whole perspective.  Now lets see if I can engage your thoughts a bit.

First.. assassinations before the treaty takes effect.  The obvious thing there would be.. it didn't start off as a one sided treaty.  It was neutral and kept things peaceful.  Then the more shady side of life got in contact with other shady individuals on the other team.. and things started to slide.  Then get overlooked.  Then straight off swept under the rug in the name of peace.  Lets say the first year was perfect.. the treaty worked as intended.  Then.. maybe a large town secretly aligned itself with the 'bad guys'.  Levying the towns militia against the inhabitants.  There are a billion examples in history where the numbers will fear the few with the weapons.

As for good guys doing bad and bad guys retaliating?  Absolutely.  That's where the majority of the campaign should rest.  They won't have a clear cut path to victory.  "Kill the Arch Dragon Demon Lich of Mount Destruction and save the kingdom."  Oooh no.  While there will be a master puppet string.. the string only goes so far.  Some denizens will be very happy with their backroom deals.. and other denizens will love not having to fear walking through a forest and having an elf fire an arrow through their face just for picking mushrooms.  

On the other side.. there will be some humans who think the 'lessers' are given to much.. and clamor for war.  Do you free a people at the cost of slaughtering thousands?  Or the folks who think a rebellion will never work.. and fear for their lives.  As bad as it is, at least they're breathing...

As for a secret police.  Yes... both sides will have one.. perhaps they'd be the same agency.. not sure just yet.  Which will add to the pressure of a rebellion.  Are they really heroes?  Or are they spies looking to catch us conspiring??!
« Last Edit: September 07, 2011, 12:59:52 PM by TheTSKoala » Logged
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« Reply #21 on: September 07, 2011, 02:42:47 PM »

I've got to say, there's subtext here that just feels a little uncomfortable. So we're to understand that the good people of Whereversville have been 'tricked' into a treaty that requires they live in peace with other races, and it's up to a few brave heroes to recover the good name of plunder and genocide?

Granted it's only highlighting the problems in the usual D&D mindset, but it's easier to ignore in a more traditional game  Tongue
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« Reply #22 on: September 07, 2011, 02:45:24 PM »

Quote
As for a secret police.  Yes... both sides will have one.. perhaps they'd be the same agency.. not sure just yet.  Which will add to the pressure of a rebellion.  Are they really heroes?  Or are they spies looking to catch us conspiring??!

Now that's an interesting idea.  What if there was a single individual or organization behind it all and they had managed to set up the situation?  How difficult would it be to trace back to this individual or organization?  Would everyone in a position of power be working for them, or would some be unknowing dupes?  What if some or all of the "good guys" were being coerced or secretly led into their actions?

For that matter, what if the "bad guys" were the ones trying to resist this organization?
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TheTSKoala
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« Reply #23 on: September 07, 2011, 02:47:52 PM »

I've got to say, there's subtext here that just feels a little uncomfortable. So we're to understand that the good people of Whereversville have been 'tricked' into a treaty that requires they live in peace with other races, and it's up to a few brave heroes to recover the good name of plunder and genocide?

Granted it's only highlighting the problems in the usual D&D mindset, but it's easier to ignore in a more traditional game  Tongue

That is certainly one possible outcome, sure.  The heroes take the path of class domination, and the 'normal' races put the denizens of the lesser species back under heel.  Could Kobolds become cannon fodder and have their entire cities plundered over and over again?  You bet.  Swamp Nymphs become the newest perfume dispensers for the highest bidder?  Okay.

....ooooorrrrr....

They take up a social crusade.. and fight for the good of all races.

Or.. something in between or neither.  That's what I like about the idea.  I'll have to see where the players take it.
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TheTSKoala
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« Reply #24 on: September 07, 2011, 02:49:44 PM »

Quote
As for a secret police.  Yes... both sides will have one.. perhaps they'd be the same agency.. not sure just yet.  Which will add to the pressure of a rebellion.  Are they really heroes?  Or are they spies looking to catch us conspiring??!

Now that's an interesting idea.  What if there was a single individual or organization behind it all and they had managed to set up the situation?  How difficult would it be to trace back to this individual or organization?  Would everyone in a position of power be working for them, or would some be unknowing dupes?  What if some or all of the "good guys" were being coerced or secretly led into their actions?

For that matter, what if the "bad guys" were the ones trying to resist this organization?

Yes.  To all of it.  lol.  There is definitely a puppet master who engineered the situation.  Not directly, and definitely through Lts.  And those in power would be working for them, but they may not necessarily know who 'them' is. 

It's safe to not know.. sorta situation.
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MilitiaJim
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« Reply #25 on: September 07, 2011, 03:12:36 PM »

One thing that happened in the 1700s in the Pennsylvania colony comes to mind:  American Aborigine raids were taking a rough toll of farms of German immigrants, the Pennsylvania Deutsch.  So Scots Irish folks looking to leave Ulster moved over in almost clan sized groups.  Supplied with some tools and arms by the colonial government, they moved out west past the more peaceful Germans.  When the Aborigines attacked one farm, the rest of the clan would gather and go burn the local Aborigine village.  In short order a balance of terror was established.

Is there a frontier similar to the one that existed in North America?  I can see antagonistic groups doing something similar...
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"Quemadmodum gladius neminem occidit, occidentis telum est."  ("A sword is never a killer, it's a tool  in the killer's hands.")
- Lucius Annaeus Seneca "the younger" ca. (4 BC - 65 AD)
TheTSKoala
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« Reply #26 on: September 07, 2011, 03:13:07 PM »

So.. here's what the ladder of evil would look like... I think.

Puppet Master -->  Enforcers (Suicidal Zealots.  Would rather die than betray the PM.)  -> Lieutenants (Middle Men.  Very persuasive diplomats.  Terrified of the Enforcers.  Only know 'of' the Puppet Master.) -> Heads of State / Organizations (Receive kick backs & incentives for playing nice). -> Various other small categories.  Merchants.  Militia. etc.

 But seemingly the Puppet master connection is only known at the Lt. level and higher.  Anyone lower than the Lt. just believes that individual Lts. represent their individual causes.
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TheTSKoala
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« Reply #27 on: September 07, 2011, 03:15:33 PM »

One thing that happened in the 1700s in the Pennsylvania colony comes to mind:  American Aborigine raids were taking a rough toll of farms of German immigrants, the Pennsylvania Deutsch.  So Scots Irish folks looking to leave Ulster moved over in almost clan sized groups.  Supplied with some tools and arms by the colonial government, they moved out west past the more peaceful Germans.  When the Aborigines attacked one farm, the rest of the clan would gather and go burn the local Aborigine village.  In short order a balance of terror was established.

Is there a frontier similar to the one that existed in North America?  I can see antagonistic groups doing something similar...

I'm envisioning so.  There will be a frontier similar to the Midwest, then a lawless zone akin to the Wild West.  The further you go away from the capitals, the more perilous it becomes to be a 'good' guy or somehow who can't use a blade.
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« Reply #28 on: September 07, 2011, 10:56:34 PM »

The first thing that came to mind when I read the first post was The A-Team. Not a perfect fit, but it could work.

As for the lopsided agreement, it sounds a lot like those in charge on the side of the humans/dwarves/etc have made the deal work for them, but not their peoples. They're living high off the hog, while attacks continue. The monsters who are caught in the act end up getting fined, though it is really more of a tax on their activities, while those who stand up to the monsters are banished/imprisoned before their defiance can inspire others to action.
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« Reply #29 on: September 08, 2011, 12:04:22 AM »

I really like this idea as long as the "evil side" has real leverage that makes breaking the agreement very unpalatable for all involved.
It should keep the PCs asking tough questions with lots of shades of grey.
Deal with the devil type stuff. 
Do you sacrifice one child to save a whole village?
I mean the hardcore life or death good of one vs the whole questions that come up in these type of settings. 
True cold war ethical crap complete with proxy wars.
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