Character Builds

[Bhurano]

Ok, acseric the builds that you mentioned are still in the pipe. While I have to agree with ludomastro that multiclass builds can be tough to pull off, especially with magic users, I will try to come up with some workable solutions. A guy in my group mixed up burglar, courtier and captain. The only thing he complained about was that he couldn't contribute much to fights, but he was totaly overkill in any social situations.
I made quite fast two soldiers. Both modeled after characters from A Song of Ice and Fire and Splinter Cell. Just to show how different "normal" Soldiers can be. Both are set at level 20.

My take on Jaime Lannister from “A Song of Ice and Fire”

Race:   Human
Talent:   Charismatic
Speciality:   Aristocrat

Soldier 20

Strength           16 (got +2)   Vitality:           280 (20 x12 + 20 x2)
Dexterity           14 (got +1)   Wound Points:   14
Constitution   14 (got +2)
Intelligence   14
Wisdom           10
Charisma          16

Proficiencies/Tricks: Up to 15 -> 6 from Soldier, 9 from Career Level

BAB:    20 +3 for melee and +2 for ranged, forte bonus not included
Ref:      9 + 2 from DEX
Fort:     6 + 2 from CON
Will:     12
Def:     12 +2 from DEX + 5 when in Armor = 14 without armor/ 19 with armor
Init:     12 +2 from DEX
Lifestyle:   6 + 3 from CHA + 2 Panache from Aristocrat -> Panache 11 – He is a Lannister after all
Legend:   10

Feats                            Skills                      Origin Skills
Armor Basics             Athletics 23 +3         Impress
Armor Mastery            Impress 23 +3         Ride
Armor Supremacy    Intimidate 18         Sense Motive
Cleave Basics            Notice 22   
Cleave Mastery            Resolve 23 +2
Cleave Supremacy    Ride 16 +2
Combat Instincts    Search 18 +2
Contempt                    Sense Motive 18
Sword Basics            Survival 10
Sword Mastery            Tactics 13 +2
Sword Supremacy
Comely                    Weapon Specialist
Elegant                    Certainty
Enchanting                    Decisive Attack
Repartee Basics            Killer Instinct
Repartee Mastery     Most Deadly
Repartee Supremacy    One Step Ahead (Bonus not included above)

Jaime is equally at home in the court and on the battlefield. He is a master swordsman and a capable tactician, but he tends to rush into things without thinking about the consequences. Give him a sword and plate mail and you have a juggernaut on the battlefield.

And here my take on Sam Fisher from Splinter Cell

Race:   Human
Talent:   Stern
Speciality:   Adventurer

Soldier 20

Strength           14               Vitality:                   300 (20 x12 + 20 x3)
Dexterity           14               Wound Points:   20 (+4 from Great Fortitude)
Constitution   16 (got +5)
Intelligence   14
Wisdom           14
Charisma           12

Proficiencies/Tricks: Up to 15 -> 6 from Soldier, 9 from Career Level

BAB:           20 +3 for melee and +2 for ranged, forte bonus not included
Ref:           9 + 2 from DEX +3 from Lightning Reflexes
Fort:           6 + 3 from CON +3 from Great Fortitude
Will:           12 +2 from WIS
Def:           12 +2 from DEX + 5 when in Armor = 14 without armor/ 19 with armor
Init:           12 +2 from DEX
Lifestyle:   6 + 1 from CHA (possibly all on Prudence, Sam is just not overly flashy)
Legend:   10

Feats                                Skills                     Origin Skills
Charging Basics                     Acrobatics 23 +2     Acrobatics
Charging Mastery             Athletics 23 +2             Blend or Prestidigitation
Cleave Basics                     Blend 20   +1              Sneak
Cleave Mastery                     Intimidate 18 +2
Combat Instincts             Notice 23 +2
Contempt                             Resolve 23 +3
Great Fortitude                     Search 23 +2
Lightning Reflexes             Sneak 23 +2
Knife Basics                     Tactics 8 +2
Knife Mastery
Knife Supremacy
Ghost Basics                     Weapon Specialist
Ghost Mastery                     Certainty
Ghost Supremacy             Decisive Attack
Ambush Basics                     Killer Instinct
Ambush Mastery                     Most Deadly
Ambush Supremacy             One Step Ahead

A cunning and calculating operative who sneaks into enemy territory and does what has to be done. He acts decisive and without mercy if need be. Most of the time he comes unseen and leaves in the same manner. In a setting like FC he could be the enforcer of a crime lord, an agent for the crown or a freelancer who is in for the thrill. Note: Blend could be exchanged with Prestidigitation to get through doors and disarm traps or filch someone.

I hope this gives you a rough estimation what can be done with FC. Just about anything.
Not to forget... welcome to the forum and have fun.

EDIT: Sorry, the formatting is horribly... don't know why...

[acseric]

Interesting takes on the characters.

So, back to an earlier question... How do you decide if and when to change classes?

Apparently, you want a game breaker by 14, so would the class progression go like this:

Base class to 14

or

Base class to 4, expert class to 10

or

base class to 9, master class to 5

or

Base class to 4, expert class to 5, master class to 5


Is this accurate?  Each of these choices would give awesome abilities by 14.

[ludomastro]

Ah, I think I better understand your question now.  In most d20 games - particularly the fantasy ones - you need to jump around and change classes to make your character feel like your character.  You have a concept in mind and need options - that the default classes often don't have - to make that vision come true.

In Fantasy Craft, you have options that are OUTSIDE of your class progression to use for that purpose.  Origins/Talents and Specialties to start with, followed up by Interests (languages, studies, etc.) and Lifestyle choices (are you the prudent Saver or the free-wheeling Big Spender?)

Inside the class, you have multiple choices: character abilities, feats and proficiencies.  Thus no two burglars would ever look the same.  (Well, given a whole universe of possibilities, it's extremely unlikely they would be the same.)  Therefore, the need to jump through different classes to gain options for tailoring your character is very much diminished.

That said, I tend to look at how the character sees himself.  If he's a soldier (class), does he see himself as the ultimate weapon?  Perhaps he sees himself as a cleric (specialty)?  Or perhaps he is dedicated to protecting others (Guardian specialty).  If he sees himself as the ultimate weapon, I would lean toward taking Edgemaster (or perhaps Monk) at level 5.  If he sees himself as a cleric fighting for the good of the faith, then I would lean toward Paladin starting at level 5.  If he's a bodyguard then perhaps I would lean toward Bloodsworn at level 5.

Now, could he be an effective cleric and stay in Soldier his entire career?  Yes.  It depends on if he sees himself as a symbol of the faith, if he's just a believer who happens to be good at fighting or if an angel gave him a divine commission from deity.

In general you can't go wrong with any of these:

• Base class to 14
• Base class to 4, expert class to 10
• Base class to 9, master class to 5

The Crafty folks have done a wonderful job of keeping classes balanced.  Thus, Expert and Master classes are not about more power but about being more specific.

While "Base class to 4, expert class to 5, master class to 5" is certainly a valid choice, it might end up being a little disjointed thematically.  YMMV

Also, keep in mind that Master Classes are setting specific and thus your GM may not allow them in every campaign.

Hopefully this does a better job answering your question.

[acseric]

Ahhh...Ok that makes more sense.

So is there ever a really good reason to mix up the classes?  Or is that mostly for NPC creation?

I have seen a few examples on the boards where example characters had several classes.

I can see how a basic class up to the game breaker makes sense, but it would seem like a smattering of other classes lower level stuff might add some versitility.

[Krensky]

First, NPCs don't use classes. If they need a Class Ability there's a NPC quality for that.

Second, you can mix in other classes, but you'll potentially delay your game breaker. If you want the Game Breaker from a Expert or master class, you don't hurt that by taking other levels before you reach level 5 or 10 repectively. Also, if a game will never reach level 14, there's no point in worrying about it. You can reduce the effectiveness of a caster by delying Circle of X abilities though. This won't matter for all concepts, thought.

Lastly, you can get a whole lot of versitility without multiclassing via Origin, Origin Skills, Advanced Actions, and your Level based Feats. My players aren't really power gamers in the conventional sense, so I find turning of the Fast Feats, Interests, and …roficiencies gives them more to play with. Also, remember that PCs only gain the Core Ability from the first Base and Expert class they take.

Not to say you can't get some synergies. If you're shooting for Gallant, for example, then a Courtier/Soldier or Courtier/Lancer can be effective, but not really more so then a single classed member of any of those three classes

[ludomastro]

Krensky beat me to it and said it better to boot.

[Sletchman]

I am a fan of multiclassing if (and only if) it is to support a specific concept.  A bunch of classes for the sake of a bunch of classes is pointless, and not required the way it was on DnD (Example: Fighter is only 2 levels long, Wizard is 5 at most).  A multiclass Fantasy Craft character can do some things that a single class version of the same build could not - which can be both a good thing (in support of concept) or a bad thing (you gain abilities you don't need to persue the concept, while delaying support abilities).

Also of note that differs from DnD is that a Courtier 2 / Soldier 2 / Gallant 10 is very different from a Soldier 2 / Courtier 2 / Gallant 10.  The change in which Core Ability you get will change the character you are playing, sometimes substantially.

Yes the gamebreakers are excellent (as others have mentioned), but the game isn't just race to get one.  A Mage 5 / Rune Knight 10 delays his by a level, but gains an additional Circle of Power - in my mind a fair trade off, one which will last you forever (including those 10 levels you were earning of Rune Knight).  Many other classes get powerful and useful (and concept supportive) abilities at 5 and 6, so delaying an expert class til you pick these up (or even going X 4 / Y 1 / X 2 / Y 9 - getting an extra core ability then picking up the others) can work to your advantage.  You also won't automatically suck because the rest of your team has Class 14 and you don't - there is no* "wrong way".

The main this is that there is no "One True Path" to build an archtype, or concept, the way there is in some other systems - the "best way" to build a character is the way that gives you the abilities you think they need to have to fit your concept, whatever that concept is.  This is coming from someone who is, and GMs for, big power gamers and number crunchers - my table has seen everything from Soldier 16 to Martial Artist / Courtier / Priest / Monk in the same game with neither being "better" then the other, just different (and both in total support of the players character concept).


_{*Spellcasters without spellcasting ranks will tend to suck, but that's obvious...}

[paddyfool]

@acseric,

Why not give us a concept and ask us to build it for you?  I'd be happy to have a go, and I suspect I wouldn't be alone in that.

[Bhurano]

Count me in.

Give us just some basic outlines what you would like to see and some specific limits or things like campaign qualities that are in effect to character creation and we can provide you with some examples.

[Geek2theRight]

@acseric,

Why not give us a concept and ask us to build it for you?  I'd be happy to have a go, and I suspect I wouldn't be alone in that.

I got one! Dwarf with elemental heritage(darkness). Martial Artist > Force of Nature. That's the basic character I want to make, but I've never made an FC character so am curious what interesting stuff can be done w/in these constraints.

[Sletchman]

Dwarf Cultist

Martial Artist 4 / Force of Nature 10

Str: 14 (14)
Dex: 12 (12 - 2 + 1 + 1)
Con: 18 (14 + 4)
Int: 16 (14 + 2)
Wis: 12 (14)
Cha: 12 (14)

1: Martial Arts (B), Elemental Heritage (Darkness)
2: Discipline of the Mind
3: Master's Art (B), Ambush Basics
6: Ghost Basics
9: Ghost Mastery
12: Ambush Mastery

I wanted to use his obscene (+13 when not in full light!) bonus to sneak to full effect, so making an ambush predator who really puts the fear into his opponent felt natural.  Cultist + Darkness has great synergy (Stress damage + Terrifying Look, not to mention Black Cat for more mind games), though Corsair would also be a great fit - Basic Skill Mastery boosts 2 things that will probably see some serious use (Intimidate and Tactics).  Sorcerer is also good if you want to be from a specific Clan.

Since you don't get many skills they should be pretty obvious - Intimidate, Tactics, Sneak, Acrobatics, Athletics and of course Notice.  You get some free Survival from FoN, and with your spare points you can grab some Resolve and Sense Motive or better yet - Prestidigitation, to become a pseudo-thief, and take further advantage of your huge Sneak.

[ludomastro]

@ Sletchman
Nice!

@ Geek2theRight
Can you give us any other ideas that might guide our thought process.  I was thinking a more martial character but haven't put pen to paper as of yet.

[acseric]

Those are the kinds of things that interest me.

Also, for instance, how would you build a character like Elric or perhaps a character along the lines of Rand Al Thor?  Both fight an use magic.  Thematically, should they split levels between classes?  or should they take one like mage, and use a lot of fighting backrounds and feats?

Or maybe something crazy like Goku from Dragonball Z.

In akk if these instances, I am not trying so much to duplicate specific powers, more of the "feel" of the character. 

Thanks, and also keep the builds like the dwarf cultist coming.  Cool stuff there that exploits synergies between races and classes.

[ArawnNox]

@aseric
On Goku, I can't put specific mechanics to it right now, but the first thing that comes to mind is a Martial Artist (Maybe with some Monk levels, I'd have to look) and using anything that extends reach and the Qi line of feats and flavoring them to represent the DBZ ki blasts. Maybe throw in some of the Staff feats and a try to custom build a magic weapon that switches between a shod staff and a longstaff treating that and the extended reach from the Staff feats as Goku's extending staff.

[Dhampire]

@aseric
On Rand al'Thor, I'm going to boil this down to covering a Lucky Mage Swordmaster, since Rand is like Conan and other iconics lead characters, there are literally dozens of ways to put together his Origin, depending on which point you want to base him on.

My take is as follows:
Adaptable Adventurer, with either Mage or Channeler class (coming in Spellbound).

Fortunate, Lady Luck's Smile, Sword Basics, Sword Mastery, Sword Supremacy, Lightning Reflexes, Darting Weapon, Casting Basics, Casting Mastery, Casting Supremacy, Hidden Spells, Spell Power

For al'Thor himself, I might include the Fencing B/M/S somewhere, and a custom feat for the setting letting Fencing, Sword, and Greatsword chains mix somehow.

Then again, I would be inclined to make a Ta'veren specialty.

Ta'veren [Specialty]
[1] Bonus Feat: Fortunate
[4] More Than Luck
[1] Chance Feat Expert
[1] Heroism