Unlimited ammo and guns in general

[Bhurano]

Hi there,

I need another point of view. Currently I am caught between a rock and a hard place, at least a bit.
In another thread Agent 333 and MilitiaJim mentioned some things I hadn't kept in mind.

To clear the air right from the start: I let my group vote if they wanted chambered weapons - even after in anothe thread the whole idea came up with mixed results. But nonetheless we played some rounds with chambered guns who can be reloaded 1 bullet per half action. My buddies said "hey, its not a gamebreaker, let's keep it". Also these modifications are pretty costly and difficult to pull of. Keep this in mind with regards to my questions.

Militia Jim mentioned that with a fireball gunpowder/bullets could be set off. Alright so let's assume the elves are a bit squeamish about arms that can so horribly backfire. Especially since they are quite easily in the camp who can come up with big numbers of spellslingers. So in a case like this and some applied sense they decide to go: "Whoa, guns are nice and shiny. But no way we use gunpowder. Let's find another way." And there we go. Also they will still use bows and fire the living hell out of anyone... because let's face its hard to use a bow properly and it needs time, which they still have.

Through the Charm Binding and Essence Mastery (I think it is Charm Binding, but I don't have my books here) you can convert the damage of a weapon. Let's assume the elves use the basic design of a gun and pack some elemental damage on it to kick some ass.

Do they still need ammo for it or has it basically unlimited ammo?
In they case of the bow should the damage conversion charm/essence be put into the bow or the arrows?
And finally how to protect a gunslinger against going out with a boom because of a firespell?

On a sidenote: I take it that guns/bows and their respective ammunition can be both equipped with weapon upgrades, or am I mistaken?. E.g. a bullet and the gun could be both equipped with AP and vice versa with a bow.

If this angle for unlimited ammo doesn't work, how could it possibly be done? I think of something in the vein of bows who create arrows of force or such.

Thanks for the help.

[MilitiaJim]

The easiest fix for flames that will just set powder aflame is fire resistant gear and being Very Careful about closing your cartridge pouch after loading.  Make bandoliers out of leather instead of canvas, and add an extra action to the loading sequence to cover resealing the box against flame.  The "ignition ball" will be a battle ending tactic for a short while, less than a year, then another potentially useful tactic that can backfire.  (If a group of musket wielding veterans with the new boxes are all aimed at your squad of elves, and you flame them, you just fired Every musket.  That's gonna hurt your guys.)

Ammunition can get upgrades.

The unlimited ammo seems rather unbalancing.  Also, by eliminating ammo, you remove a reason for needing to reload, further unbalancing the weapons.  I can't think of why elves skilled with bows would move to firearms before repeating rifles.  The younguns would, in my mind, be much more inclined to pick up the rifles and get Good with them.

[SilvercatMoonpaw]

Well the elves might also invent fireless powder.  I can't really recall anything in the rules about making gunpowder explode, so it probably wouldn't be unbalancing for PCs to have access to a variant that doesn't get set off by a well-placed fireball.

[MilitiaJim]

Well the elves might also invent fireless powder.  I can't really recall anything in the rules about making gunpowder explode, so it probably wouldn't be unbalancing for PCs to have access to a variant that doesn't get set off by a well-placed fireball.

If it doesn't burn, it is not useful as gunpowder.  A full power fireball is much more likely to set off that powder, the "light fireball" spreads the fire out, not doing serious damage, but setting things like lantern oil and gunpowder up in flames.  (Trade damage for area of effect.)

[SilvercatMoonpaw]

If it doesn't burn, it is not useful as gunpowder.

Why not?  I said it doesn't get set off by fires, not that it can't launch a bullet.  It's not physics, it's magic.

[Sletchman]

Electrically activated chemical propellant?  It's physics-magic!

Just every so often you have to recharge the guns...

[Sheena-Tiger]

Guess i give some input too 
Blackpowder/Gunpowder as is does not simply explode... it just burns away very fast.
Putting it into something were it can burn but the gas can not expand fast enough makes it dangerous. The space behind a bullet is very limited and even if it needs some kind of external fire which burns through a small hole into the chamber... this small hole is not enough to let the gas escape fast enough through it to prevent a shot.

what could be dangerous is a fully loaded and chambered weapon which gets heated enough to make the gunpowder go 'boom'... the first loaded shot will most likely be not harmful, depending on where it is pointing though, all others would at least ruin the chambers i guess and therefore rendering the gun at least useless and maybe endangering the wielder.

The devices to carry gunpowder are mostly made to be waterproof, i doubt making them fireproof has a priority as the powder would simply burn away if the bndolier or the likes is burning away too. If it is carried in a pipe that is sealed on both ends though... unhappy guy who wields it if the power goes off prior to the pipe melting if it is metal

*blinks* *ponders* hmmm... blackpowder + wooden pipe + fuse... niiiice Bhurano... i know i will hate myself.. .but those sound like some nice weapons...

[MilitiaJim]

The original thought for this "expanded/weakened fireball" was that it was hot enough to ignite powder and singe hair, but not hot enough to do "real damage."  You would end up short some Vitality, and without ammunition, but basically unharmed.  Guarding against that sort of flame is not too difficult:  A bit of silver on a leather cartridge box, instead of a canvas one.

Like I said, it is not a tactic that would remain dominant for long.  Odds are good there will be an elven band leader who gets his ass blasted to chunky salsa after he meets veteran humans who expect that trick.  But it is something to take into account, and would affect artillery and supply lines.

[Bhurano]

Some nice thoughts.

Ok, so it seems that any damage conversion enchantment should be placed on the ammunition. Ok, noted, also the fact that the reload shouldn't removed.

I pondered wether some kind of mines would be used or better how they would be used. Actually it doesn't seem that hard to pull of... just some kind of trigger... and at it's max. a ignition spark to detonate the whole thing... possibly even some kind of technobabble/magebabble like a crystal that holds fire... and there we go.

@Sheena-Tiger

I suppose your idea goes more in the direction of some kind of bomb. Nice thing.

@MilitiaJim

If a Fireball or other spell could be toned down that would be a likely tactic... and the consequences you describe, too . On another hand even this tactic would quite definitely lead to exclusion of grenades, at least in a fight against fire magic users. Because these can quite effective be ignited... even with a weakly fireball.

Your line of thought that the elves might not be happy to lose their higher rate of fire without bows by changing to guns will also be factored into my current setting. Quite likely that they like the thought of a reliable silent weapon, that also needs extensive training to be mastered or due to some sense of tradition. It could also outright Steampunk vs. Magitech. Also it might be quite likely that they don't like gunpowder at all. Possibly that they - at least on the defensive - use some kind of magic mines or such.

Until now there is only one thing I can't convert from our old campaign setting to FC: The staves of the magi... the idea got lifted from Dragon Age to be fair and square... but since my buddies wanted them... I included them. This is the only thing I can't convert. Can that be done without to much fuss or should I throw that part out?

[spinningdice]

I think Dragon Age staves are quite well handled here: http://www.crafty-games.com/forum/index.php?topic=3381.0

[Bhurano]

Thanks, for pointing me in the right direction.