Non-Magic Kingdom vs. Magocracy

[Bhurano]

Hi guys,

ok, during the conversion for our campaign setting something cropped up. I made the decision to untangle the old magic houses from the Empire Hadvar in the campaign. I did so to level down the complexity of scheming that ran abound in this already complex part of the setting. There are still dozens of factions to keep track of, like noble houses, different factions of priests, rich people, thieves and the Order of Purity. The Order of Purity is basically a organization that is against magic. I put them in to give some thought to the abuse of magic. they got founded during the wars against the elves and later on tried to safe non-magicians during the 3 wars of the magi with all their atrocities. So they have a fair point... but during the last centurys they got a bit far. Think of the inquisition at it's worst. They nearly stomped out wizardry and forced mages into hiding. So the 9 houses of magic pulled out and got to another continent. Also the order got backup from the priesthoods, who wanted to kick the wizards out as councillors to the nobility and take their place instead.

If these two sides of a coin got to war, would the empire stand a chance?

So effectively in the Empire Hadvar only half-wizards are trained (Alchemists, Rune Knights, Mist Dancer - those who only get 1 Spell Point per level). Alchemists are by a far cry the most numerous - but even then they are not that much compared to the whole population. Also worth noting are the points that the empire uses steam-driven-tech and their whole population is counted in the millions. Their army is partly professional and dangerous (think of roman infantry) and partly classic medieval levys - read: they know not much when it comes down to war. They have also gunpowder on their side and steam-driven-ships for land and air. They use mercenaries whenever feasible. Classic tactics up to the reason era apply. So living of the land of an enemy, pillaging and worse things are common. They will also receive heavy backup by the priesthoods and the Order of Purity.

The magic houses on the other hand also have a population in the millions and around 20 to 25 % of them are wizards of some kind or the other. These are the only one who have full citizenship rights. Any one with Draconic Heritage is considered a lord if he is also a wizard, if not he still has full citizenship. Anyone with a half-wizard class ability (alchemist, rune knight, mist dancer) is equipped with more rights than non-magical people. Everyone, even those without citizenship are quite high educated, because the wizards also gain new apprentices out of the commoners. When it comes down to war the wizards are confident in their abilitys and they field highly trained chanellers, rune knights and other wizarding units. They also make heavy use of arcane weapons http://www.crafty-games.com/forum/index.php?topic=3381.0 and normal units are unheard of. They use magical propelled air and sea ships and use beasts of war like dragons, hydras, giant turtles and so on. Even the bigger ones are not so rare, because they have a house that breeds them. They don't use mercenaries... it's a long tradition that they don't trust such beings - not even slightly. Smaller groups of beings who join because of a common cause are neglectible. The don't live of the countryside if they can establish supply lines. When it comes down to tactics they tend to be flexible and quick thinkers - even if of the more bookish sort... but then again there are chanellers and rune knights... the not so bookish ones. There biggest advantages are probably their ability to glean information, mind rape anyone, unleashing diseases, tinkering with the weather, transportation and some other stuff. They are also near impossible to infiltrate, since you need to be a magical active person to have any rights at all and any member of the houses is marked with tattoos who grow the more powerful the wizard is. So anybody can literally see which grade of magic can be unleashed by a wizard... if they know to interpret the tattoos.

Ok, this is the general setup of both sides how they are present in the campaign. Some things for further consideration. Both sides try to have control over some of the isles that are between their continents. Both sides have access to a teleportation network on their continents... the empire just have no means to create new ones. Also important is a current limitation with regards to the creation of magic items. Currently only magic classes are allowed to take the needed feats for them. Another thing to consider the wizards would fight for their lives - if they loose they got put to the sword. No ransoms or mercy for them.

Is the empire curb-stomped in a conflict with the wizards or do they have means to oppose them? Also should the magic item creation limitation lifted or not to level the playing field? What would be needed to make this an equal fight, if thats possible at all?

Knowing my group I am better be prepared than sorry. Especially since one of my players (a Reaper to boot ) want to occupy an island near the empire... to better skim off would be apprentices from the empire. Can you guess what they won't like? I would like to hear your opinions on that one.

EDIT: I like the whole idea of tech vs. magic and would prefer to keep the idea in the campaign.

[paddyfool]

Hmm.  In a straight-up fight, it would be fairly easy to balance out Tech vs Magic mechanically.  On a strategic level, however, Magic offers huge non-linear advantages (extremely easy to know what your enemy is doing, where, and outmanoevre them using teleportation and scrying spells; to evade detection using invisibility etc.; to perform virtually risk-free surgical strikes using summoned units; the ability to make the enemy's decisions for them with mind-affecting spells; and doubtless many other considerations I'm not thinking of right now).  Unless you insert some arbitrary rule about magic not working well around large amounts of Tech, or some highly specialised countermeasures (the ability to construct an artificial anti-magic field, at the high end; specific counters to specific spells, such as "see-the-invisible goggles", "scry jammer", or "teleport jammer", at a lower end), Tech, even steampunk tech, is going to have a very hard time. 

There are, on the other hand, some high tech attacks that I don't think magic offers much defence against (is there any "protection from snipers" type of spell other than invisibility?) and you could, of course, give the Empire a massive logistical advantage.  But as things stand, there are just too many things they wouldn't be able to counter.

[Morgenstern]

I would say that if the wand-wavers have the full complement - all 24 disciplines, all the way up to level 9, then the corresponding tech level gets into the late cyberware/early nano-tech range.

You might want to trim the range of magic in setting, perhaps substantially (magic weapons and constellation magic ONLY for example) before event trying to put a purely tech-faction on even footing with scrye and teleportation, much less time stop.

The other alternative is "paladins of the true world" - armored butt kickers that radiate null magic: summoned beasts simply wink out of existence at their glare and this heathen trickery called "magic" turns to dust before their commitment.

Then possibly a whole order of dedicate mage-killer assassins... "No matter how subtle and potent the wizard, a knife in the ribs in the night is going to crimp his style" Make wizard a toxically unhealthy profession and the number of applicants at Magi University drops way off. Its a whole other ball game when mages have to be trained one at a time in total secrecy or they get snapped up like fledgeling birds fumbling about in front of a 17 foot crocodile.

[paddyfool]

The other alternative is "paladins of the true world" - armored butt kickers that radiate null magic: summoned beasts simply wink out of existence at their glare and this heathen trickery called "magic" turns to dust before their commitment.

Then possibly a whole order of dedicate mage-killer assassins... "No matter how subtle and potent the wizard, a knife in the ribs in the night is going to crimp his style" Make wizard a toxically unhealthy profession and the number of applicants at Magi University drops way off. Its a whole other ball game when mages have to be trained one at a time in total secrecy or they get snapped up like fledgeling birds fumbling about in front of a 17 foot crocodile.

Heh.  I like these ideas, and I started to homebrew the following:

(click to show/hide)

Alignment skills: Investigate, Search, Tactics, Crafting
Alignment paths: Discipline (AC), Order, Protection, Purity (AC)

(click to show/hide)

Party Role: Backer/Combatant
Requirements: Sorcery campaign quality, Mage Hunter, Alignment (Order of Purity), Resolve 6+ ranks
Favored Attributes: Strength, Constitution
Class skills: Athletics, Intimidate, Notice, Resolve, Alignment skills
Skill points: 4+ Int modifier per level
Vitality: 12+Con modifier per level

Core Ability: Allies who can see and hear you, and who have no ranks in spellcasting, may share the benefits of your Mage Hunter feat.  Your own Spell Defense from this feat now increases in line with your ranks in Resolve rather than your Career Level.

[Stuff]

Aura of Piety I: At Level 2, you gain (some limited anti-magic field ability)
Aura of Piety II: At Level 7, you gain (Anti-Magic Field I, always on)

[More stuff]

Expert class: Purifying Blade (6+Con Vitality, 8+Int skill points, various stealth, magic detection and maybe some mage-killing abilities)

Master class: High Inquisitor (9+Con Vitality, 6+Int skill points, scary, politically powerful and pretty much magically untouchable).

But then I got to thinking that really, you could model a lot of this perfectly well with existing classes (except maybe the High Inquisitor), and perhaps some custom items (a limited capacity to create magic items within the Order, such as ones which allow the casting of Mantle of the Mundane, Anti-Magic Field I and II, Protection from Spells, Purge, Detect Magic, etc., or magic items which grant NPC properties like Spell Reflection or Blindsight, would make a lot of sense; perhaps in addition to a cadre of Knights of Pristine Order and one of Purifying Blades, you could have one of Sanctioned Runesmiths or something similar).

[Bhurano]

Thanks guys,

these are rather interesting ideas. To force the wizzies into hiding and fearing for their lives... with the only exceptions be the elven realm(s) and the wizzies own land.

Hadn't thought about the fact that magic can surpass tech to such an extent... but then again I will incorporate it. So a slight twist in the social structure of the mages will be introduced. Anyone with wizard powers gains citizenship, any commoner who agrees to get some magic grafts/implants to be a "better" citizen will be awarded with some rights of a citizen. Any other commoner will still be without rights.
They will live better than in any other realm but they will not have that much to say... so it's an utopia... for wizards.

Morgenstern, the idea to force the wizards more or less into hiding is damn nice... even better is an order dedicated to kill them... hadn't thought about that. Also magic in this setting shall be more around realm-shattering, so that the non-wizzies have a reason to fear them.

Paddyfool these classes are the icing on the cake ... I am a bit cautios to use such - fearing that it could break the game - but in this case they are damn awesome. These will also help to make the Order more fearsome and even worse for my buddies it will transform them into an organization with a cause.
I will try to fill out the blank areas and and post it when I have the time and done with it.

Great ideas of yours.

P.S. the Sanctioned Runesmith sounds like Warhammer40k... or is that just coincidence?

[paddyfool]

40k did come to mind a bit while thinking about what the structure of such institutions might be, yes.  

EDIT: Thinking it over, another alternative would be to have four specialities (Knight of Pristine Order; Purifying Blade; Sanctioned Runesmith; and Inquisitor), and an Expert or Master class for the High Inquisitors.  I'm also not sure of the Knights should have Mage Hunter, whether they're an expert class or a speciality; it seems quite in character for them to often be Clerics and/or Paladins, and have access to paths which might cast spells (e.g. Order, and/or some homebrew path which includes Antimagic I).  Maybe reserve that feat for the Purifying Blades...

Speaking of which, he's an idea for how they'd work as a speciality:

Speciality: Purifying Blade
You are the hidden hand that guides the knife, cutting out those with the taint of magic
Requires: Alignment (Order of Purity)
Bonus feat: Anonymity Basics (although Mage Hunter, Ghost Basics, Ambush Basics, and Skill Mastery (Spy or Investigator) were also tempting) [1]
Favored Foes (slightly modified): Your threat range increases by 2 when attacking and making Notice, Sense Motive and Investigate checks targeting standard characters with the ability to cast spells. At level 6, you gain the same benefit against non-casting agents of the Mage Guilds, and at level 11 and 16 you may select two additional types of foe viewed as hostile by the Order.  [3]
Practiced skill (investigate): If you spend an AD on a skill check with the named skill and it fails, then you receive the AD back. [2]
Hidden Alignment: The DC of spells which would detect or target you based upon your alignment increases by your career level.  If they fail, it is as if you were of no alignment.[1]

And here's the Inquisition:

Speciality: Inquisitor
You are trained to extract information from those under suspicion of magic.
Requires: Alignment (Order of Purity)
Bonus feat: Perfect Memory [1]
Practiced skill (Sense Motive):  If you spend an AD on a skill check with the named skill and it fails, then you receive the AD back.[2]
Terrifying Look: The will save DCs of stress damage you inflict increase by 4.[2]
Decisive: You gain a +5 bonus with initiative.[2]

[MilitiaJim]

I consider it worth mentioning the effect magic can have on business and industry:  If you can summon magical flames, your smiths do not need charcoal to work their blades, nor do you need coaling stations for railroads or harvest/threshing equipment.  Given the foulness that goes along with tanning chemicals, some enterprising wizard might even come up with an arcane substitute.

We are talking "mythical Atlantis" levels of magitech.  I'm not sure there is a good reason why they haven't conquered the world, absent apathy.  At least until technology becomes less expensive than magic.

[Sletchman]

At least until technology becomes less expensive than magic.

This is a really good point.  I remember someone's signature on the boards here had something to the effect of "we can lick gravity, but it's too much paperwork" (I'm certain I'm paraphrasing).  Sure mages can summon cheap clean fire for smiths, but if that means a mage has to sit at a forge all day pointing his wand (or equilivent investment) - is it going to be worth it for said mage?

Also, just something that popped into my mind - in I, Robot there were people who hated the robots for putting regular humans out of a job (do things at twice the speed with perfect accuracy).  I'm sure some kind of comparison could be drawn, if one were so inclined.

[Deral]

At least until technology becomes less expensive than magic.

This is a really good point.  I remember someone's signature on the boards here had something to the effect of "we can lick gravity, but it's too much paperwork" (I'm certain I'm paraphrasing).  Sure mages can summon cheap clean fire for smiths, but if that means a mage has to sit at a forge all day pointing his wand (or equilivent investment) - is it going to be worth it for said mage?

Reading this I kind of like the idea of coal being advertised as an alternative to keeping one of those pesky mages around. You could put together a whole world based on the idea of magic solving technological/advancement problems first, then inventions and discoveries coming up with ways to do it without resorting to magic, afterward.

[Fortinbras]

I consider it worth mentioning the effect magic can have on business and industry:  If you can summon magical flames, your smiths do not need charcoal to work their blades, nor do you need coaling stations for railroads or harvest/threshing equipment.

So wizardry is so common that they're content to do work as menial as stoking forge fires? I don't really see that happening unless you have a society where literally everyone knows a few spells, and in that scenario I think it's fair to assume they'd run roughshod over any civilisation that doesn't casually defy the laws of physics.

[MilitiaJim]

Perhaps a fire inclined mage became a blacksmith.  They tended to be men of some status.  The savings to be realized with arcane fire over buying and messing with charcoal/coal are modest but significant, especially if the arcane heat helps make a better whatever.

Maybe blacksmithing isn't a great example, perhaps something of a higher value add:  Whitesmithing, carving, things like that.

Perhaps part of the tax mages pay each year is assisting the harvest with their arcane power.  If ten mages can increase a county's grain output sevenfold, they are of great value.

Reading this I kind of like the idea of coal being advertised as an alternative to keeping one of those pesky mages around. You could put together a whole world based on the idea of magic solving technological/advancement problems first, then inventions and discoveries coming up with ways to do it without resorting to magic, afterward.

I hadn't thought of it like that, but yeah.  It really shifts your entire economic paradigm, in a "build it from the ground up" way.  (Which is its own sort of interesting.)

[spinningdice]

If you're building as a FantasyCraft setting. it's worth remembering the Essence/Charm feats don't need caster levels to take, the elites are the mages, but a 'middle-class' of artificers could make perpetual forges and storage items (given a large amount of industry is transportation, the ability to make a lot of items effectively weightless has to have merit)

[MilitiaJim]

... the ability to make a lot of items effectively weightless has to have merit)

Yes, yes it would.  Consider the fact that you just upped your army's mobility and cut their supply lines' thickness by eliminating drastically reducing the need for horses and mules.  Add an artificer to your artillery team and your cannon is nearly as mobile as your cavalry...  Even finding a way to make a better turning axle would be a boon to transportation.

Heck, they wouldn't call it "ice cream" it would be "[name of wizard who invented the freezer box]'s milk treat" and the guy would be rich.