Elves and the Fey creature type

[Bhurano]

You are right... stupid me... Hadn't thought about that bit.

[CmdZOD]

A few suggestions and comments based on your last (great) post, Bhurano. I just want to show that since nobody knows what it's like to be immortal you can pretty much make them the way you want. There is no real logical point behind it.

Psycholgy : So, you're immortal...
a) and jaded about life after the first century and become a thrill seeker
b) and jaded about life after the first century and become a cold rational mind. After all, you saw the big picture
c) and so conservative of your own life that you become paranoid and lock yourself up
d) and turn to mysticism to make sense of such a long life
e) and grow a ponytail while trying to off your own kin in ritual one on one combat

personal favorite : immorality for free makes you consider it meaningless and you're not more concerned about your self-preservation than other species. You would need a very strange psychology to support immortality. Presumably based on active/sleeping cycle. Such long life span would made them more feral than civilized, i think.
The key is to break the logical fallacy that longer life = more civilized and more self-conscious. This apply to humans.

Population : everybody here seems to fear elf overpopulation why really ?
a) elves may not reproduce like us humans. They may be biologically programmed to have a diminishing birth rate based on the population density
b) War, either consciously or unconsciously, can take care of that. Look at W40K orks, they go to war based on the population density, why not apply this to elves ?
c) they are fey and their immortality is based on magic. Why use a rational argument such as food in this case? Maybe they feed on magic ?
d) If everyone fear that elves can SPAM the world with their children, why are they always outnumbered in every fluff i've read for the last decade ?
e) As a last possibility, elves may have to kidnap other species children to fill their ranks for war (taken straight from the Arthur RPG video game) or they could be themselves born in massive waves of elven children based on some cosmic events.

Personal favorite : biology matters more than society in elf reproduction cycle, possibly magic in nature. I'll go with the Bamboo route (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bamboo) and have them spawn in great numbers at great intervals, thus creating sharp golden age followed by a steady decline until the next wave.

Experience : I'm not sure elves HAVE to be better than anyone else
a) It makes elves prone to have these "i'm so better than any of you" moments
b) Long life is different from rich life, they can live for a thousand years but why should they remember everything ? What if they had a memory span of 1 year ? 10 years ? 40 years ?
c) quality doesn't matter once the other species have access to rifles, at least history teaches us that. Elves can't always be one step ahead. If they are so intelligent, i'm pretty sure they would figure that one out. If they don't have the staying power of other species, they would have to retreat to the fey world and rely on outpost and commando-like troupes for warfare.

Ok, i'll stop there, but boys this topic has me all fired up.

[MilitiaJim]

There is a decent sized gap between "will not die of old age" and "immortal."  Absent writing, most of elves won't have definitive ages, just degrees of old.

I think war and starvation would keep the population down.

What about elves hibernating for a decade or three now and then?  "I'm bored, I've wandered all over.  This cave looks like a nice spot to nap for a while."

[Bhurano]

Nice thoughts, CmdZOD

Ok, they will quite likely see their own immortality as nothing special. So yeah, as a society they are as diverse as anyone. So you have guys who want comfy lives and those who are thrillseeker, and anything between. As a society they must nonetheless take care that their young don't get killed by nature, raiders and other things. But your point is quite interesting and might change many things.

When it comes down to the population there is only one thing that is important: It is quite likely small. If you bring in your Bamboo route (which is a hilarious comparison ) they enjoy a "short" surge in population, which regulates itself over time... quite nice.

Sorry if my intention with the "experience"-thingy came of wrong. What I meant to convey was that they as a species need to be competitive. That doesn't mean that they are necessarily better than other species. What I meant is that they have a several fields in which they can handle things. They are not necessarily better at swordfighting than a men-at-arms or knight, but they might also be able to track creatures, craft finely things and so on... thanks to their longer lives. They are not necessarily masters of anything, think of more jack-of-all-trades with a field or two where they excel. That is the best approximation of what I wanted to express. So with a normal human they might come of as "better", but in comparison with player characters... not so much.

EDIT: I meant that they need to branch out. So compared with a normal human they may come of as "better" when it comes down to versatility, but they are most certainly are not as dedicated or specialized as someone who has to money with his skills. With time this might be end in such a way that the elf is versatile and excellent in the things he can do... Also important to note is the fact that this is only a comparison between NPC's. Bring in elven NPC and any PC and the PC will likely (even with not to many skill points) be equal or even superior compared to the NPC. I brought this statement up because in The Dark Eye many different things are considered in the fluff with regards to elves and there they shall come of as better, but you just can't live up to that. Because the systems doesn't even support this fluff, not even then when it wouldn't be gamebreaking. So there it is a pain in the ass to play an elf - because it just sucks. In FC you have the fluff and can live up to it, right out of the gate.

Thanx, for the food for thoughts.

[MilitiaJim]

It will be very interesting to see what they do when they meet the humans with all their industries.  In "short order," less than a century, you'll see first class elven blacksmiths, or whitesmiths if there is some iron allergy.  Likewise they'll be signing up as sailors and pirates in short order.

(I've forgotten, are we working with the "standard Earth" arrangement of continents?)

This article, "The Geopolitics of the United States, Part 1: The Inevitable Empire" has some most interesting things to say about how geography influenced the rise to prominence of the United States.  It is long, but may be relevant to your interests.

Edited to add link.

[Agent 333]

@Agent 333

If the elves are in the Classic era and anyone else hitting the Reason era how do they stay free? I mean anyone else has guns and cannons and other advanced stuff, but what have the elves to stop a hostile takeover dead in it's tracks? Magic? Some kind of odd artifact that protects their "realm"? Strategic Alliances? Access to minerals or other that only they have?

Guerrilla warfare and homefield advantage play a huge part of it. Plus, who says the hostile takeover has stopped dead? It's slow, but the elves are losing ground and will eventually either adapt or die. Some of them might survive, but not before a few tribes are completely wiped out. It will just take a while...

Plus, you have to consider that elves have Sharp Hearing which makes them impossible to surprise and base speed 40ft, which makes them hard to catch if they decide to run. Makes them really good at evading capture ambushes.

Also, remember that "Newer" doesn't necessarily mean "Better". Firearms might do more damage, but they take forever to reload compared to a bow. And if you miss with your one gunshot...

[MilitiaJim]

Add their magic to the mix, and those who learn of the interlopers weapons will be able to pull off some really nasty tricks.  (It also takes a lot less effort to set off powder than to torch a person.  Go for a Huge fireball with minimal power, and you can just cook off Everyone's powder.)

[Pooka]

On the Fey creature type issue, would the following be unbalanced?

At creation, allow players the option of declaring their Elf or Human characters to be a 'Half-Elf'.

This has the following effects;
1.  The character is both Fey and Folk type, with all the advantages and weaknesses that entails.
2.  The character can take Feats as an Elf (such as Owl Nation).
3.  The character qualifies for any Feat requiring Fey or Folk type (such as the various _____-Blood).

Otherwise, the character is a normal Elf or Human.

[Sletchman]

I'd say if someone wants to be a half elf, having them take the Elf Blood feat.  Otherwise why would a human ever say no to that?  Not to mention that you're opening the floodgates for Half-Elf, Half-Human and Half-Something else characters, which can get quite silly.

If you really want to give that to your starting characters allow them all to take a "1st level only" Species feat at character creation, in addition to their normal feat allowance.  That way players who want to be Half-X can take X Blood, and those who don't can take a Horde/Nation/Born/Clutch/Etc feat.

[Pooka]

Well, it was mentioned earlier that having both Fey and Folk types is an overall disadvantage, because of the things it opens you up to.  I'm not sure that that would be worth it for most players of humans just to get access to a few Elf Feats.  For a Human, I would honestly expect it to be either a roleplaying thing (like Aragorn being 1/37th Elf) or part of a very specific build (though there may be some obscure combination- Giant-Blooded Spider Nation etc, that would make it worthwhile).

The main issue is for Elves, who presently can't take a lot of Feats because they're not Folk.

[Sletchman]

Sure having both Types is an overall slight disadvantage, but bear in mind that this is quite different to having both Races (which I consider an advantage).

If the main issue is that Elves can't take a lot of feats, that's an easy fix - just change the prereqs to whatever fits in your game.  For example - I have no prerequisites on Angelic, Draconic, Demonic, or Faerie Heritage/Legacy when I run FC, and I'd personally go with some smaller change like this then something more major, at least at first.

[Bhurano]

@Pooka

I don't have my books at work. So which feats can't be taken by elves? Do you mean the blood feats or there are other feats in RAW they can't choose?

Personally in my group the prerequisites on the Angelic, Draconic, Demonic, Elemental and Faerie Species feats have been lifted. Did I miss one? My group couldn't wrap their heads around the fact why these are limited. Neither could I. So that was the only small change we did.

What is the reason that you want Humans to have the Fey creature type in the first place. That is something I flat out don't understand. Just because for some more feats? In that case you could take - at least with a human - as sletchman already pointed out - elf-blood. But with a elf what would the advantage to be a folk creature?

Thematically the crafty guys pulled a nifty job how they painted the elves. I like it much... Sure there are no folk half-breeds among them, but then again it fits the theme. On the other hand I thought "Burden of Ages" to be a dealbreaker when playing one. But until now it doesn't seem so... it also lends an good explanation why they don't want to be caught in a prolonged slugfest.

[Bhurano]

@MilitiaJim

I will chew through your link... it looks promising... but a bit lenghty.

Your thought that the population is brought down by war and starvation is intriguing. I assume that you in that case would go the route that they at least as birth-happy as humans and therefore have a huge amount of lives to "spare".

If I would go down that route a highly ritual art of war might be happen to keep the ensuing destruction to a minimum. So something in the vein of the mock battles of the inkas/aztecs (I hope these are the right ones). But not played for laughs or honor, but straight death... complete with anything that can be used for war and any kind of war. Also if this isn't highly ritualized it might be end up as the deadliest and ballsiest game the pointy-ears like.

Or the could go just for war in its purest bloodiest variant everytime their numbers grow to big and scale the whole thing up accordingly. Or the could go expand their lands. Whoa, that would stir up quite some things normally not associated with the bloody treehuggers. Going postal on an enemy like nobodys business? Check. Even more warlike than Orcs? Check. Even more ironic the Orcs in FC - just per RAW - an attempt to create an elven offspring that is bred for war. Even more vicious and mean than humans? Check. Ho boy... that's would be just a bunch of trouble waiting to explode in your face.

On a sidenote: A species which needs constantly to do this might end up really badass... because only the fittest might/would survive. I don't want to know what they would do with their unfit and disabled. Possibly something like the old Spartans or like in a Song of Ice and Fire with the temple where some people go for suicide. The species as a whole would quite likely never be at peace because if they have the same birth rates as humans they also end up with an higher average population (or so I suppose) than humans because even under such circumstances many might survive such constant warfare. That's a scary thought. And then consider those ancient ones who survive for several centuries or after 2 to 3 centuries worth of fighting they might even considered to valuable to be send into war.

What would other species think about such warlike elves? That would be nice to know. What about elves who revel in such a lifestyle of war and death? And also to consider mankind made most of its breakthrought because we got better at killing each other. Many inventions - even those that weren't intended to - have been bend to the cause of war. Damn scary thoughts to think what would happen if another species is bend to beat us at our own game.

[Catodon]

Mote in Gods Eye

[MilitiaJim]

I will chew through your link... it looks promising... but a bit lenghty.

No rush, it's pretty far into TL,DR territory.

These elves could also be much like the Aiel of Wheel of Time fame.