Martial Arts

[adrick]

Have some questions on martial arts.  and comments on unarmed.

Specifically how do size and natural attacks work/effect them.
The player is an Oni.

If we are interpreting it correctly everyone does d4 (with the proficiency)
and size doesn't increase damage, then the martial arts feats add up to +4 to this if you have both of them.
PC's can't use the Kick,Slam etc natural attack line for NPC's ? So no d6 kicks for humans or d8 kicks for oni.  Nor can they use frenzy.
So everyone's best unarmed is d4+4+stat (any other ways to raise this?)

However it looks like natural attacks side step this and you can use them in place of the d4 and stack the +4 from feats on top of it as well.
So the oni ,when using the multi attack feats,
 will do d8+4 not including stat bonus. on all unarmed attacks assuming he headbutts everything with the horns.

Is this all correct? If so does this work out ok in play? At first glance it seems a bit overpowered for things like lizardmen, dragons and others with natural attacks at least when compared to  races without natural attacks that want to be unarmed specialists and not just pick up a greatsword. But still not as bad as DND giant monks. Just want to make sure we have interpreted correctly. Any suggestions on how to build effective humans.


As for comment this has been the only real major difficulty we have had with the system it took a lot of page flipping to find all this out.  we've run into problems but once we drop DnD expectations and read as written things usually clear up.

However all the unarmed attack info is well scattered through the book.
it was difficult to find unarmed attacks (no mark in index for were to find unarmed damage)
And we were unsure if kick would count for pc, (other npc traits can apply to characters like undead, fey etc. )
So it caused some confusion until we found the no weapon line in damage rolls.
I would suggest adding it to the index in the next update or updating the martial artist pdf with a summary or example of some sort to help quicken the search.

Thanks for the help.   

[EdgeOfDreams]

Yes, natural attacks count as unarmed attacks.  This makes races like Saurian and Drake pretty good for the Martial Artist class and the Martial Arts feat tree.

Really, substituting the 1d8 of a claw attack instead of the standard 1d4 of an unarmed attack isn't that big a deal, especially when you consider that you'll never get a magic weapon (excluding unusual magic items).

[Kerebrus]

well, that character's magic "Weapon" is a ring with Spell Effect: Wild Side II.

[Krensky]

Or one of the Essences that add a quality.

Yes, Races with Natural Attacks make out well on Martial Arts.

Then again, they can't apply upgrades to their natural attacks.

[adrick]

Cool so we are putting it all together correctly.

So really not a big deal compared to weapons.
But how about a human, pech or giant(ignoring trample) martial artist that wants to hang with fists only. the weaponless monk characters.
Can they hang with a saurin or dragon etc.
Doesn't seem like a problem vs standard characters but seems like they would lag behind vs special characters.
Or is that more a matter of thinking sideways and tricky and using other tools at your disposal like pummel and tricks etc?

[Coyote0273]

The martial artist in my game was doing 1d4+8 points of damage, 3 to 5 times per round. Had we continued that campaign, he was going to be trying to get his hands on either a ring, or gloves that turned his damage into divine so he ignored DR.

That, and he had Reach 2... on his fists, as a human. Yeah, he held his own just fine.

[adrick]

right but then wouldn't an equivalent oni or lizard man or what have you, do the same thing at d8+8 or do some bonuses not apply to natural  attacks?

Or does the,little bit extra not matter that much in play?

[Coyote0273]

An Oni with a claw that does 1d8 is no different than a Soldier with a Short Sword that does 1d8. It's less in truth, as the Oni doesn't get the Keen ability added onto his claws.

[Agent 333]

An Oni with a claw that does 1d8 is no different than a Soldier with a Short Sword that does 1d8. It's less in truth, as the Oni doesn't get the Keen ability added onto his claws.

That wasn't his question though. It was whether the Oni with a d8 claw was OP compared to a human with a d4 fist.

The thing to remember is that characters with natural attacks spent character options getting those natural attacks. Is a d8 better than a d4? Yes, obviously. Is it broken? Well, keep in mind that someone with Master's Art is doing more damage from their bonus than their die in most cases. Does +2 damage on average and +4 damage at maximum (+0 at minimum!) break the system? Not really. The human character has other advantages that the saurian or whatever simply misses due to opportunity cost.

System wide, Ogres tend to be better at killing things than humans. They have drawbacks to make up for that however, so in the long run it balances out. Unless your campaign is nothing but constant combat with no social interaction, then Ogres just rock.

[adrick]

Right, so tougher and scarier which they should be really,  but not so much why play anything else than a natural attack martial artist.

At first blush 5 horn attacks at d8+8 reach 2, would trump 5 punch attacks at d4+8 reach 2.

But the human could look for ways to use his versatility(human can do acrobatics) rather than trading punches directly.   
Any suggestions on a good build, feats to look for, etc, for a human bare knuckle brawler?

thanks for all the help everyone. Our oni player is going to be thrilled we had figured it out correctly.
And i'll have some thoughts for the new guy that was considering being a human brawler.

[Morgenstern]

1d4+x and 1d8+x is a 2 point split in average damage. However many points the oni spent getting those two points of damage, the human spent the same number of points doing something. If he's not as good at doing damage, (and DPS obbsession tend to fair pretty badly in this game...) he's bettter at doing something else. Then there's the possibility he took a talent with crunch, in which case the split might be very small indeed...

[adrick]

(and DPS obsession tend to fair pretty badly in this game...)

Very true we've seen that a couple times already, they have criticaled most of the bosses rather than plowing through the vitality.

Tougher adjustment for the player in question since he is used to gaining damage dice over time with the monk.

But,  if we end up really wanting that feeling, should be easy enough to build a style tree that gives or builds to iron palm(slam), or eagle claw(claw) using some of the other monster race feats as guides.

But as you all point out thats not necessarily the best option for a good character.
So best to let it simmer for a bit and see how it works out.

Thanks again everyone for the clarification and insight, much appreciated.

[ArawnNox]

once we drop DnD expectations and read as written things usually clear up.

This.
What you said earlier needs to be reinforced.

A lot of us had to relearn the game because of the DnD expectations that we held. Looking at what a combatant can do in terms of pure numbers is the wrong way of going about things in FC. Take a look at the unarmed combat feats again, those trees give you a lot to work with for a weaponless style.

Do you have the Adventure Companion? I recommend picking it up, if you don't, because it has more options in there for those martial arts types to really shine.

Damage code isn't everything in FC, and we can't really recommend builds, per se, because, as many will attest to, it's hard to build a sub-par character.
Well, you COULD, like if you took a Soldier and then purchased all Style feats, but all that would do is make you a proto-Gallant.

I say, have fun, experiment, don't worry about if you can do more damage than the guy who took different options. Once your group adjusts, they'll love it. Mine certainly did.

[Goodlun]

Well, you COULD, like if you took a Soldier and then purchased all Style feats, but all that would do is make you a proto-Gallant.

I think this is a perfect example of why this game rocks so hard.  Cause even with an example of a character that might "suck" we end up with what would be a rather fun character. 
Heck a soldier with all style feats is still going to be able to hold his own in combat but now will be able to hold his own in most social situations or at the very least end up with one heck of a PL.
Even if playing with "feat exchange Style"
It is rather difficult to build a bad character in this system unless you try to min max then you run the risk of leaving a size able hole in your game plan.

[Agent 333]

Well, you COULD, like if you took a Soldier and then purchased all Style feats, but all that would do is make you a proto-Gallant.

I think this is a perfect example of why this game rocks so hard.  Cause even with an example of a character that might "suck" we end up with what would be a rather fun character. 
Heck a soldier with all style feats is still going to be able to hold his own in combat but now will be able to hold his own in most social situations or at the very least end up with one heck of a PL.
Even if playing with "feat exchange Style"
It is rather difficult to build a bad character in this system unless you try to min max then you run the risk of leaving a size able hole in your game plan.

Actually, it's kinda easy: Play a Mage and don't put any ranks in Spellcasting. But then you KNOW you're building a bad character on purpose...