Less Deadly Crits

[Deral]

For what it's worth, I'm not a fan of minimum threat requirements - players will just end up using them to the exclusion of other more characterful weapons.

This is kind of why I was thinking about threat ranges, I wonder how it'd balance out if you gave lower range weapons access to higher critical effects, 20 threat has access to the full list, 19-20 is slightly restricted, 18-20 even more so.

Edit: For other ideas, just the first thing off the top of my head: You could always have additional effects, like disarming or tripping, or inflict conditions for a certain amount of time.

[Mister Andersen]

Now tell me that this is a dumb idea, so I can stop thinking.

Well not in so many words, but honestly, do people really want to be looking up even more tables and cross references during combat?

If you're going to use the crit system, you want to KISS as much as possible.

Anyhow, another option for crits is that they auto-inflict the bleeding condition; subsequent crits bump up the die 1 step

[Deral]

Now tell me that this is a dumb idea, so I can stop thinking.

Well not in so many words, but honestly, do people really want to be looking up even more tables and cross references during combat?

If you're going to use the crit system, you want to KISS as much as possible.

This is a fair point, it definitely wouldn't be a system for everyone, but if there's one thing my players don't mind running to a table for, it's a list of cool stuff they can do/ways they can screw with villains.

Anyhow, another option for crits is that they auto-inflict the bleeding condition; subsequent crits bump up the die 1 step

In practice I think the "roll on the table of ouch" option would wind up doing this more often than not, but the second bit's a good addition.

[Sletchman]

Anyhow, another option for crits is that they auto-inflict the bleeding condition

That's almost something that's actually in my home chart I didn't mention.  My actual rule is that the weapon automatically inflicts one add on effect.  So Massive weapons drop the opponent, others do Bleed or Baffled and so on.

[Morgenstern]

*chuckle* So I'm just gonna have to keep my rant about what is actually "dramatic" about combat to myself until I have a complete system to present? Hmm.

Well, drawing on a different bit of gaming, that is my beloved fight games, I notice ther is just no such thing as "average chance" of hitting. You work various strategies trying to get a hit in, then try to ride that inertia to inflict as much damage as possible, either through true combinations or simple disorientation of the opponent. I think there's some interesting parallels to be considered since fight games share the simple "countdown clock" of a life bar/hit point total and also have that subtle detatchment of player from character that influences a lot of table-top play. The mind making the decision is outside the action and tends to be a lot more tactical in its thinking than the character would be from within the situation.

One feature that helps increase the dramatic appeal of fighting games is various comeback mechanics - as you get beaten down, you tend to stock some sort of resource or ability that could potentially flatten your opponent. Mastercraft has a few comeback character options, but maybe more would help or integrating them more directly into the system.

Consider - running out of vitality gives you a grade of fatigue. What if you flipped that over? running out of vitality removes a grade of fatigue... The character is basically hovering 1 hit from dead, and thus gains a sort of desperate strength. That might actually be pretty dramatic.

Makes me wonder if in addition to pounding the target, crits should also give the target some action dice or other benefit that makes the foe fight like the proverbial cornered rat.

After rolling a threat on an attack against a against a special character, you may:

Give the opponent 1 action die to force them to roll on the Table of Ouch. The result of the check is increased by the maximum face of the die (i.e. transfering a d6 action die increase the Table of Ouch result by +6).

Give the opponent your 2 largest action dice to reduce their Vitality to 0. No further damage is rolled.

[Gentry]

Sounds like a trip to Campaign Quality land, Morg.

[Morgenstern]

Sounds like a trip to Campaign Quality land, Morg.

Everything in this thread fits that description, I would think .

[Morgenstern]

Ok, more random musing on Crits.

The whole thing is based on a a false premise, and that's why it's breaking down. Crits exist to give players that little tingle of danger, the possibility that they can be one-shotted at almost any time. But it requires active investment on the part of the GM... which is where it totally fails. First off, you don't really want to one-shot players. Its a hassle. Second off, because it requires active consent of the GM rather than random dice rolls, it makes you a prick when you actually do it, the source of hard feelings at the table most effective GMs instinctively shy away from (if they want to keep having a game night populated by fun players anyway).

So the faux symetry you end up with is this massively powerful kill option that players use at every opportunity, and GMs NEVER use. The whole thing probably needs to start over from root principles - 'what is it you WANT crits to do?', because they aren't working right for either party. If they are gonna be nasty, the GM needs to be able to scapegoat the dice - it's not his fault he rolled a 19 then another 19. That's the luck of the draw. Similarly  they probably need to not be fatal - they are shortiening the life expectancy of villians far too much, and because they are so nasty, they are social contract wrecking when they happen to players.

[paddyfool]

All fair points.  Although, as the power balance goes, it's worth noting that it's rather more difficult for a character to reduce their vulnerability to crits (their options being to have: lots of wounds, e.g. by being a high Con Large character with Great Fortitude; lots of DR; and/or a magic item granting Tough 1) than it is for an NPC (one or two grades of Tough, while expensive, aren't that difficult to build in).

[SilvercatMoonpaw]

The idea of trading "Straight to Wounds" with "Increased chance of Critical Injury" sounds like at least a step in that direction: critical hits impair the target, not one-shot them.  Still something the players want to avoid, but not necessarily all-or-nothing or something you can't work around.

[Valentina]

Hey, btw one clarification requested: what's the context for the special characters in this thread?
Players? Masterminds?
I stump around in armor of one kind or another as much as I can. If your team are all Pajama Ninjas they should expect to get their spleens shot out once in a while. That's how being functionally naked works.

Morg: Nah mon, I'm with you. Crits work to add sudden, unpredictable stimulation. I really, really like abruptly ending some MM's career with a brainpan-pulverizing 500-grain sleeping pill. And the converse doesn't bother me. I wear armor. I use cover. And taking one in a lung mid-mission just changes up my approach and adds another factor to consider -and gives me a little RP fodder.
The drama of the boss fight is in it's execution, but it's also in the buildup to it. I want an enemy I can sink my teeth into. Whether that's as an object of philosophical pondering or just some scumfeck I want to see dead as bell-bottoms is just a detail when the question's emotional engagement with the outcome.

[Valentina]

So the faux symetry you end up with is this massively powerful kill option that players use at every opportunity, and GMs NEVER use. The whole thing probably needs to start over from root principles - 'what is it you WANT crits to do?', because they aren't working right for either party. If they are gonna be nasty, the GM needs to be able to scapegoat the dice - it's not his fault he rolled a 19 then another 19. That's the luck of the draw. Similarly  they probably need to not be fatal - they are shortiening the life expectancy of villians far too much, and because they are so nasty, they are social contract wrecking when they happen to players.

I wouldn't say that. Shadow and I still have a laugh about the time he nearly died when a random .45 round hit him through 100% Concealment and 75% Cover and the only reason he kept breathing was his much pooh-poohed 1 point of Soldier-class DR.
Shadow would never, ever wear armor as a matter of pride. Served him right, it did.

I count the number of Crits I've survived as badges of honor. I haven't Armor Supremacy, btw, because while that would solve the problem rather completely it's just not that big a deal.


Oh, a clarification: Shadow was nearly reduced to 0 Wounds.
Not actually killed outright.
There's still Stabilization, still spending AD to recover, the use of the right Security gear, etc etc.
Let's not get it mixed up, at least for PCs. We also tend to treat MMs the same way: zero wounds is not dead either.

[SilvercatMoonpaw]

I count the number of Crits I've survived as badges of honor.

Some people aren't interested in surviving.  For them critical hits are a potential one-hit death sentence for their character's story and they'd rather fight a glorious last stand through a bunch of critical injuries.

So let's figure out something for them to use.

[Valentina]

I count the number of Crits I've survived as badges of honor.

Some people aren't interested in surviving.  For them critical hits are a potential one-hit death sentence for their character's story and they'd rather fight a glorious last stand through a bunch of critical injuries.

So let's figure out something for them to use.

I get that, and to each their own.
But again, how are they getting killed in one hit? Seriously, I'm asking. Do they drop their Con score? Scorn armor? Are there really, really high damage values being inflicted? Does the Control like to add action dice in when he Crits a player? Do they not want to spend Feats on defensive options?
I feel like there's a thing go unsaid here that I'm not seeing that makes this a problem.

[Fortinbras]

But again, how are they getting killed in one hit? Seriously, I'm asking. Do they drop their Con score? Scorn armor? Are there really, really[/i] high damage values being inflicted? Does the Control like to add action dice in when he Crits a player? Do they not want to spend Feats on defensive options?
I feel like there's a thing go unsaid here that I'm not seeing that makes this a problem.

Play a Pech with a Con of 12 and you've got 8 wounds to last your entire adventuring career. Plenty of monsters can deal that in one bite.

Honestly I'd assumed it was an unwritten rule of GMing in Mastercraft that you NEVER crit the PCs. It's neat that the option exists, everyone loves it when they can cut through the villain's monologue with an arrow to his eyeball, but players need to feel that their death was 'fair' and they should feel safe to take more risks if they've got a big heap of Vitality remaining.