Spell Defense Questions

[Agent 333]

This springs out of the rant I started over in the Crafty Seminar thread:

Has Spell Defense ever mattered in one of your campaigns? Has one of your characters ever been glad for the Spell Defense they've had? What abilities granting Spell Defense grant enough of it to matter? What ones are just not worth taking?

[aegis]

Well, Spell Defense has always been nice enough not to change the whole tone of an adventure for me. The PCs who had it enjoyed it somehow, but it wasn't problematic in the sense that it wasn't bulletproof. So basically, when I threw a powerful spellcaster against the party (a mage, a strong supernatural power), the Spell Defense wasn't enough to protect whoever had it (or most of the time). But when I threw minor spellcasters at them (there was an orc shaman I believe, as well as a few doppelganger illusionists), Spell Defense was a real asset to those who had it!

So I'd say that whenever you can have Spell Defense, take it. It's cool, because the NPC system allows the MJ to throw great or minor spellcasters at you: it's not their Caster Level that matters here, it's their sheer Spellcasting result. But I believe none of the Spell Defense-granting abilities gives you enough of it to become immune against the best spellcasters of the game. And that's, in my opinion, a very good thing.   But that also means that you shouldn't rush at all cost on Spell Defense. It's cool, but not a must-have.

[Mister Andersen]

(click to show/hide)

Consider this: A 6th level Ogre Scout who chooses Intimidate as an Origin skill and who grabs Fire Brave at 1st level,  Fire Elder and Night Training at 3rd level and Abide In Darkness at 6th will find themselves with a virtually unassailable Spell Defence for the rest of the game.

Consider too the Mage Hunter feat, which provides Spell Defence equal to 10 + Level + Charisma mod and which is significantly easier to qualify for than AID; if our fire ogre takes Adept as her specialty and we assume Charisma is her dump stat she's still looking at Spell Defence of 21 by 3rd level.

These two examples are not mutually exclusive. With a Spell Defence of 50+ and free crits against anyone with Spellcasting, every single magic user in the game will be living in fear of her coming after them^*. Which of course then leads to the possibility of at least one of them deciding to get her first.



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* She'll mostly come at night. Mostly...

[Kerebrus]

would spell defence from two different sources combine?  and to what degree?  Looking for a book source.

[Agent 333]

Morgenstern specifically said in the Q&A thread that they DON'T combine. If they did I'd be inclined to agree with you, but I'm just not seeing it. And Fire Elder and Mage Hunter ARE mutually exclusive, one requires Spellcasting ranks, the other requires 0 casting level, which, unless there's an exploit I'm unaware of, are incompatible requirements.

[Mister Andersen]

*peers* Oh, so it does. Pity.

Where does it say that multiple defences don't stack?

[Crafty_Alex]

*peers* Oh, so it does. Pity.

Where does it say that multiple defences don't stack?

Generally, only BONUSES stack, and only then if they're unnamed. There are not many cases of things which can apply from multiple sources that are NOT bonuses, granted, but Spell Defense is one of them. As you note, Spell Defense is a floor, which is only really useful at a certain threshold.

[Agent 333]

The problem is, the floor is too low to matter. It's like saying the pool has a bottom so you don't have to worry about drowning to the man that's in over his head. Yes it's a floor... but so is your regular Defense and the Casting DC. If your SD is lower than either, then it's a meaningless number. That's my big gripe with it.

(I also disagree with it from a flavor perspective: I think things that are supposedly immune to magic should have huge saves (possibly with a bonus vs. magic) and/or Spell Damage Resistance. Spell Defense just doesn't seem to work from a flavor perspective for me. In case you care, I never liked Spell Resistance in D&D either.)

[Mister Andersen]

Actually, you can pick up up both mage-hunter and fire elder if you're a sage; you specifically don't get caster levels when you pick up SAQTA via cross training.

[Agent 333]

I believe in the second printing they clarified that you get Caster Level 4 if you pick up something that needs a caster level...

[Mister Andersen]

"When a cross-trained ability uses Class or Caster Level to determine its effect, it is considered to be 4."

That's /not/ the same thing as having a caster level of 4.

[Sletchman]

"When a cross-trained ability uses Class or Caster Level to determine its effect, it is considered to be 4."

That's /not/ the same thing as having a caster level of 4.

That's some quality rules lawyering, that flies in face of the theme of both the feat and ability in question.  I tip my hat to you sir. *tips hat*

OT: If you build your character to have amazing SD, it can be absolutely terrifying for caster NPCs.  I've played an Ogre that was effectively immune to magic, in a magic heavy campaign.  The only stuff that would affect me was a Special NPC with a high signature grade, and it often cost an action die.  I dedicated a bunch of resources to doing it though.  I do agree though, that at default "I get this" level, it is pretty limited.

[paddyfool]

*peers* Oh, so it does. Pity.

Where does it say that multiple defences don't stack?

Generally, only BONUSES stack, and only then if they're unnamed. There are not many cases of things which can apply from multiple sources that are NOT bonuses, granted, but Spell Defense is one of them. As you note, Spell Defense is a floor, which is only really useful at a certain threshold.

Just returning to this discussion following other threads on how anti-wizard builds might work. So, you get spell defense from one source only.  As far as I'm aware, there are four possible sources for spell defense, all of them feats:

Special Construction (Brass): Always 20.  The best at low levels and the worst at high levels.

Abide in Darkness: Generally handy, from 14 at level 1 to 36 at level 20, or 1 higher if your speciality grants an additional starting AD.

Mage Hunter: Close to but not quite as good as Abide in Darkness unless your character has a very high Cha.  (Say you've got a Cha of 14 and don't increase it; this'll run from 13 at level 1 to 32 at 20).

Fire Elder: Generally not handy, unless you've got a truly ludicrous Intimidate (Str) bonus, at which point it becomes the best spell defense of all.  As modelled by Mister Anderson, with a Str of 14, and max regular ranks in Intimidate, this'll just run from 6 at level 1 to 25 at 20.  However, with a +2 gear bonus from a standard, Prodigal Skill (Intimidate), the Basic/Mastery/Supremacy skill chain, a Str of 20, and a magical item of +7 Intimidate (Greater Skill Ranks Charm), you could crank this all the way up to 44 at 20.

Therefore, if you really want to be able to scare people into an inability to cast spells at you, it seems doable, at a price.  And although a maxed out NPC spellcaster (Spellcasting grade 10, threat level 20, Int 20, Casting Basics/Mastery/Supremacy), can still ignore your Spell Defense under any circumstances with their +48 to casting, you should have a handy defense against anything much below this.

EDIT: Any critique of my numbers or general analysis?

[Morgenstern]

There are also several spells that provide spell defense.

[paddyfool]

Drat!  When the first thing I found in the list of spells under a Ctrl-F for "Spell Defense" was a critter summoned by Call From Beyond, I thought the search function had found nothing and moved all the way onto the Bestiary chapter.  Ah well, here's what there is:

Heroism I/II/III: Spell defense 20/30/40 vs Shadow spells

Sacred Aura: Spell defense 25 vs "spells with an opposing Alignment cast by characters with an opposing alignment" (should there be an "or" in that sentence?)

Spell Immunity I/II: Spell defense 50 against 1 specific spell per four levels that you have.  Each spell must be level 4/8 or lower.

So yeah, the best spell defense available at present comes from Spell Immunity (up until they cast something unexpected, anyway).