Talents and other Speices

[The_Grand_User]

I had an idle thought the other day about what it might be like if human Talents were no longer just for humans, but for all characters. The Talents would need to be adjusted a little bit, sure, and this would either require giving human a proper species writeup, or have a non-human game. I think it'd be particularly interesting/useful for an all X species game.

It'd be a parallel to the Special/Class, where the first is what you do, and the latter is how you do it; the species is what you are, and the talent is how you are.

NPCs would likely need a slight boost as well, but that's easy, maybe an free 5-10 XP.

[meadicus]

this would either require giving human a proper species writeup, or have a non-human game.

Or you could let a human take two talents.

[The_Grand_User]

Heh, I had thought of that, thus reinforcing that the humans are the super adaptable ones.

[SilvercatMoonpaw]

An intriguing idea which I like.  But do you have any rules for how to account for the effect of Origins gaining an extra 7 points on PC power?

There is an alternate idea, if you don't mind me tossing it out: convert species into a Species feat chain.  Depending on how closely you want to hew to the original Species entries many probably don't need too many feats to replicate (heck, you can start with the X-Blood feats in the Adventure Companion).  Of course this may bring up some issues when you get into more complicated species builds such as Drakes, Rootwalkers, and Unborn.

[Herodarwin]

As long as everyone has a bonus talent it doesn't matter if there an amount of power boast in this option.

Or just raise threat ratings by one.   

[The_Grand_User]

I think the only thing that'd have to balance them against would be slightly tougher NPCs (or another way to say it, less XP for the same NPCs). Since all the PC characters would gain them they'd automatically be balanced against each other, I should think. They'd be a fair amount more heroic at lower levels, and only a bit more crazy powerful at higher levels.

Another thing that might be done is to redo the races/talents to be made with with 5 points each, then you'd only have 3 points more than usual.

As far as aspects of balance to consider, I've thought of these:

• PC vs PC: It'd be an across the board increase, so still balanced
• PC vs NPCs: The players will be a bit more powerful compared to the same NPCs, but that's easy for a GM to fix, particularly with this system
• PC Power vs Difficulty: like the above, but for other things, also easy to adjust
• Game Math: This should stay fairly close to normal, with a extra point here or there, as it's mostly broadening a characters abilities, rather than heightening existing ones.

I doubt it'd be too different in terms of power than any of the Campaign Qualities that increase character power directly, such as Larger-Than-Life Heroes or Fast Feats.

In fact, why not make it a CQ:

Talent Show (Permanent): Humans aren't the only ones with talents, all species get one. But Humans are twice as talented, so they get two.

[Coyote0273]

As long as the player characters are equal across the board, then there shouldn't be any power balance issues. Granted, the GM will need to make more powerful NPCs to challenge them equally if everyone gets an additional talent, but is something already factored into a GMs playing style so shouldn't be too much of an issue.

[Number Three]

Am I the only one who has wondered about 0-point species?

[Doublebond]

Am I the only one who has wondered about 0-point species?

Sounds like a template more than a species.

[The_Grand_User]

Am I the only one who has wondered about 0-point species?

I've also wondered about using a different number of points for the species.

[Blankbeard]

Talents set speeds.  How does that interact with the speed from the species?  Would a Savage Dwarf have a speed of 20, 30, or 40?

There are a few combos I think are worrisome.   Strong Stern Fighters (Or for that matter Stern Ogres and Giants) look a bit too perfect to me.  Adaptable and any of the talents with Double Boost look a bit off, particularly an Intelligent Adaptable Wizard Mage.  Spend one action die on Spellcasting, roll two with a +2 on the total and get the die back if it fails. Spell Resistance?  What's that?

 

[Deral]

Talents set speeds.  How does that interact with the speed from the species?  Would a Savage Dwarf have a speed of 20, 30, or 40?

There are a few combos I think are worrisome.   Strong Stern Fighters (Or for that matter Stern Ogres and Giants) look a bit too perfect to me.  Adaptable and any of the talents with Double Boost look a bit off, particularly an Intelligent Adaptable Wizard Mage.  Spend one action die on Spellcasting, roll two with a +2 on the total and get the die back if it fails. Spell Resistance?  What's that?

Speeds are easy, you can quickly consider 20 and 40 -/+ 10, yeah you can stack it twice for a 50ft speed but you're still paying for it.

As for the combos, the main thing you'd have to look out for is double stat boosts, I don't think I'd call Strong Stern perfect, but with a +4 strength it probably isn't priced -exactly- right, but only off by a point or two, if it's a huge concern you could simply say "only apply the highest attribute increase from Talents for each attribute" and that'd make talents likely illustrate diversity. Adaptable is nice, sure, but the +2 on AD results is not much of a boost over what an Intelligent Wizard + any other talent is already getting, really.

[Sletchman]

Am I the only one who has wondered about 0-point species?

That's how I handled a few hurdles when working on a campaign setting previously.  Never came to fruition though, so I can't comment on ingame balance.

[The_Grand_User]

If the challenges were adjusted appropriately, I do not think it'd be a problem for a lot of the combinations, it just becomes the question of over specialization vs generalization again, which already exists, just a bit more so. And the humans getting two talents was just the simplest solution, I'd prefer to make up a proper species for them, then everyone gets just one talent.

I agree with Deral on the speeds issue, it's just a nice simple solution. Might need a slightly larger battle area, but I play with virtual table tops anyway, so that's not an issue for me

I don't know if I'd make a long runnign campaign with it, I might someday, but it'd certainly be fun for a few one-shots or short campaign. Kinda like a lesser version of the Gestalt rules from 3.5.

Now, what would be the most appropriate way to boost the challenges? Figure an effective +1 to threat level? Free XP fro the NPCs? Statistic grades considered the next higher, with the new Grade X being equal to the old Grade X plus Grade I?

[Agent 333]

The big problem would be Hardy Dwarves or Wise Elves, or the like. Ridiculously high attribute mods are going to hurt balance pretty badly, IMO. I like the suggestion that for each attribute only use the highest mod, but that leads to its own issues... (ie, what if you have a Species that has a penalty to an attribute with a Talent that has a bonus to that attribute?)