Spellbound Pre-Order Details

[Sletchman]

Alex / Pat:

Just reading the base classes, and something twigged my powergamer/rules lawyer senses: The Conjurer / Reaper 1st level ability let you cast 1st level spells from one school, and 0 level spells from the other schools - all good there.  At 3rd level, you can elect to increase the spells you are allowed to cast by 1 level.

By the RAW - at 3rd level, you can now cast 2nd level spells from one school, and 1st level spells from all schools (and so on up to 9th in both).  Was this the intent?  I'm ok if it was, it just seems extremely powerful and makes the Mage (as it is in FC) a really shitty class - you lose none of your generalist casting by choosing to play a specialist, which seems counter intuitive to me.  Unless the Mage is getting a somewhat substantial rewrite to make it not suck?

I'm good either way, just checking if the intent of the rule is what is written (and if it is, I really hope the Mage is getting majorly beefed up).

[Coyote0273]

I'd call that the cost of being able to cast any spell in the book without limit. After all, even in d20, Specialist mages got extra spells per level above and beyond what normal wizards got.

[Krensky]

Also, Mages are guaranteed to get Level 9 spells, Specialists are not, even in their own School.

The Mage's core ability lets them recharge their Spell Points, as opposed the Specialist boosting their casting level. A Mage abilities give them bonues to their casting checks, attribute bonuses, lowered spell levels, always being able to cast level low level spells, etc.

Plus, you know, being able to take 10 on spellcasting checks.

[Sletchman]

The Mage has a fantastic Core ability and 6th level ability (Spell Secret), the rest is pretty meh, and the gamebreaker is really weak - especially in light of the new 2 we've seen.  In fact when I ran a 14th level game the only straight Mage player never even bothered to use it.  Their skill bonus made the entire ability rather moot, and the 1/4 chance for a Critical Success far outweighed the small safety net.  I houseruled it to a Spellcasting duplicate of the Soldiers gamebreaker - saw an instant uptick of use (0 vs every session).

I don't really buy the "guaranteed to get 9th level spells" thing either, because the player has to choose to not get them, it's not like they have to build a specific way to have 9th level spells (the way you would have to go Mage 11 / Hexer 9).  In fact they are more likely to get 9th level spells - a Reaper 10 / Hexer 10 can have 9th level in his school, the Mage 10 / Hexer 10 cannot have any 9th level spells.  I call that a point in favour of the specialists, but YMMV.

Honestly, I'm more after the intent - it kinda threw me for a second, especially after the previous Spellbound stuff we've seen - the Chaneller / Seer specifically don't advance non-class schools, so this new method seems a little off.  I know that previous Spellbound is totally not the new hotness, but still...

[Crafty_Alex]

Alex / Pat:

Just reading the base classes, and something twigged my powergamer/rules lawyer senses: The Conjurer / Reaper 1st level ability let you cast 1st level spells from one school, and 0 level spells from the other schools - all good there.  At 3rd level, you can elect to increase the spells you are allowed to cast by 1 level.

By the RAW - at 3rd level, you can now cast 2nd level spells from one school, and 1st level spells from all schools (and so on up to 9th in both).  Was this the intent?

I think you're misinterpreting the RAW: there's a difference between being able to learn a spell and being able to cast it. Specialists per their Way of... abilities can still only learn 3 disciplines unless they dip into another class (and slow their spellcasting progress again) or take the Extra Discipline feat (only available once).

I'm ok if it was, it just seems extremely powerful and makes the Mage (as it is in FC) a really shitty class - you lose none of your generalist casting by choosing to play a specialist, which seems counter intuitive to me.  Unless the Mage is getting a somewhat substantial rewrite to make it not suck?

With a selection of potentially 900 spells, the Mage most definitely does not suck.

I'm good either way, just checking if the intent of the rule is what is written (and if it is, I really hope the Mage is getting majorly beefed up).

The Mage needs no beefing - even in playtest it signfiicantly outshone the specialists and it was a lot of work to bring them up to speed without shattering the system. Specialist mages will be good at their specialties, and just average at casting what few other spells they are able to learn, while mages pay for their incredible breadth (and very broadly applicable abilities) with a slight dip in focused power.

Honestly, I'm more after the intent - it kinda threw me for a second, especially after the previous Spellbound stuff we've seen - the Chaneller / Seer specifically don't advance non-class schools, so this new method seems a little off.  I know that previous Spellbound is totally not the new hotness, but still...

Incorrect - the Seer and Channeler both had Circle of Power, just as it is written in the Mage, meaning IF they could learn spells outside their school, they'd cast them at the same level and power as a Mage.

[Sletchman]

I think you're misinterpreting the RAW: there's a difference between being able to learn a spell and being able to cast it. Specialists per their Way of... abilities can still only learn 3 disciplines unless they dip into another class (and slow their spellcasting progress again) or take the Extra Discipline feat (only available once).

Ah, there's the bit that wasn't quite clicking - I was reading it that they could learn and cast whatever, not just cast it.  It seems so obvious now that I'm not sure how I made that mistake to begin with.  I guess with only Extra Discipline and Spell Library there isn't that much to worry about.

[Illithar]

I was a little curious about how Circle of Power seems to work for the Hexer and the Arcane Savant in the preview, it's not a Legacy ability like it is for the classes in the core book. I thought that was kind of odd, unless I have missed something...

[Mister Andersen]

I'm going to guess that one of the master classes is Lich

[Coyote0273]

I was a little curious about how Circle of Power seems to work for the Hexer and the Arcane Savant in the preview, it's not a Legacy ability like it is for the classes in the core book. I thought that was kind of odd, unless I have missed something...

It's still a legacy power. It's just worded differently. Each "circle of power" ability "increases the spell level you can cast by 1".

[Crafty_Alex]

I was a little curious about how Circle of Power seems to work for the Hexer and the Arcane Savant in the preview, it's not a Legacy ability like it is for the classes in the core book. I thought that was kind of odd, unless I have missed something...

It was part of a change we had to make in Spellbound to ensure compatibility of Circle of Reaping/Conjuration/etc. (which are slightly variant) and Circle of Power. CoP does not actually need to be a legacy ability since its effect is always the same. For balance in the system, we never grant, say, CoP II (+2 Levels of spells you can cast) at once, which is the only place having it be legacy would be useful. We discovered during playtest this actually REALLY helped the playtesters grok how the ability was supposed to work - a lot of groups found earlier versions which included the numbered versions more confusing ("Why does the Arcane Savant let you cast just Level 1 and 2 spells?"). Lots of unexpected upsides with this change.

[SilvercatMoonpaw]

Except now I'm the one confused (whereas I wasn't before): What's going on with Circle of Power?  You just gain extra, no more "Circle of Power I, Circle of Power II",  just "+I Circle of Power"?  That actually seems more confusing to me.  Plus longer to calculate since you have to add up each Circle individually rather than just adding your highest together.

[Crafty_Alex]

I think you may be overcomplicating it:

Circle of Power: At Levels 2 and 4, the maximum level of spells you may cast increases by 1 (e.g. from Level 0 spells you know to Level 1 or lower spells you know), to a maximum of Level 9.

The text is virtually identical, except instead of having a roman numeral at the end you just add up your "circle of..." abilities to determine what level spells you may cast. Not really any different from getting Cold Read multiple times or what have you. Legacy numbering is most necessary when you have abilities that change at different versions (example: Evasion I vs. Evasion II).

[SilvercatMoonpaw]

It's just that previously you could just take the roman numerals and add them.  Now you have to count them off one-by-one.

[Crafty_Alex]

It's just that previously you could just take the roman numerals and add them.  Now you have to count them off one-by-one.

We may be in a 6 of 1, half dozen of the other situation. When we rolled this out to our playtesters they really really liked it, and their groups said they understood the intent much more clearly. The text itself, which mentioned specific levels you could cast, seemed to be the problem. In the final product, you'll see the new format, while perhaps marginally more fiddly for the guy buidling a mid-high level 'caster, gives us radically more flexibility with class abilities and lets us accomplish specialists that can actually contend with the Mage in a fair field while not increasing the difficulty of building your caster level by level.

[Psion]

Is the pre-order no longer available? Or am I just blind? I asked the cashier at the show and he said check the website.