New Breath Weapon Feats and Tricks

[Sletchman]

I'd go with Ranged, personally.  They are ranged attacks after all, and as you said, Drake Martial Artists are plenty capable.

EDIT: Plus the idea of a Drake Scout (or even Drake Deadeye) who relies on his inbuilt ranged attack rather then carrying a modified Bow (or Ballista) really appeals to me.

[Dhampire]

Like the rebranding. 

I'll probably be offline again 'til early Sept now, but after that I reckon I'll stick all this up on the DB.  (Still see-sawing on ranged vs unarmed though; Drake Martial Artists hardly need any more love, whereas I do like the idea of Drake Scouts as ambush predators, and as a ranged attack that uses the unarmed proficiency, it seems equally valid as either).

Have you thought about tagging it as follows:

Species Feat
This feat also counts as an Unarmed Combat Feat and Ranged Combat Feat.

or would that make them a bit too good?

[Morgenstern]

Have you thought about tagging it as follows:

Species Feat
This feat also counts as an Unarmed Combat Feat and Ranged Combat Feat.

or would that make them a bit too good?

Counting as 2 other types, definitely overpowered. If they needed more oomph (and I don't really think they do, but tastes vary), I'd make them either Ranged/Unarmed feats and then give them a "Special: This feat counts towards the number of Species feats you have." which would make them increse the breath weapon save. Case could be made for either Ranged or Unarmed, so its more a matter of looking at what classes you want to entice...

Rather than adding the special note, there is better precedent for class abilities that lets your feats of two other trees count as one tree you use a lot, ot lets two trees count as both types. So a (purely theoretical... heh) Dragonmaster class might allow you to count both Unarmed and Ranged feats as Species feats.

[paddyfool]

I don't think they need more oomph, but I can see how taking a feat designed to boost your breath weapon which doesn't increase the save DC would leave players with an unnecessarily perverse choice.  Hence the original Basics benefit, and why I think Blankbeard's Breath Weapon Control feat is a good idea.  Especially if we're going with Ranged feats, since there are a lot less of them that a Drake would want to take, and it's therefore unlikely to get overpowered.

[The_Grand_User]

I've got a few conversions from Draconomicon to add.

These are either Ranged Combat or Unarmed (I favor Ranged).

Sticky Breath
You know just how to make things sticky situation for your foes.
Prerequisites: Breath weapon, breath weapon basics
Benefit: After using your breath weapon and until the end of your next turn, you bite attacks inflict an extra 2 damage of your breath weapon's type. Also you gain a trick.
Clinging Breath (breath weapon attack trick): In the round after you breath, the clinging breath weapon inflicts half of the damage it dealt in the previous round. A foe can take a full-round action to attempt to remove the clinging breath weapon before taking additional damage. With a successful reflex save of the same DC as the breath weapon the effect is removed. Rolling on the ground grants a +2 bonus on the saving throw, but leaves the opponent prone.

Quicken Breath
You are an expert in using your breath in quick, rapid bursts.
Prerequisites: Breath weapon, breath weapon basics
Benefit: Once per round you may use your breath weapon as a half action. If you do so, it's damage dice are reduced to half (round down) and it's error range increases by 1.

Tempest Breath
With a huff and a puff…
Prerequisites: Breath weapon, breath weapon basics
Benefit: Your breath weapon deals double damage to structures. Also you gain a trick.
Blown down (breath weapon attack trick): The save DC of this attack is reduced by 4. Your breath weapon causes strong winds in addition to its normal effects. As a free action, you may Bull Rush each opponent who suffered damage from this attack as if you were one size category smaller. Roll only once for the action, while each opponent rolls to resist separately.

And a trick that I can't quite figure out a feat for

Enlarge Breath (breath weapon attack trick): The length of your breath weapon increases by 50%.
Alternatively
Enlarge Breath (breath weapon attack trick): Your breath weapon gains a range increment.

Mostly straight forward conversions, they probably need some limitors that I haven't added in.

Heighten Breath is already taken care of by Breath Weapon Supremacy, and Shape Breath and Spreading Breath by Greater Breath, in a way.

So that still leaves a few feats from there that haven't delt with: Extend Spreading Breath, Lingering Breath, Maximize Breath, Recover Breath (not really applicable though), Split Breath. There's also several non-breath feats in there that'd be great to convert.

[paddyfool]

Clinging breath seems very nasty, given that Fire damage already does continuing damage, and given that it has no penalty to balance its benefit.  

The Quicken Breath feat is very handy, and seems pretty balanced.  

The Blown Down trick seems to need clarification; it doesn't seem to make sense for a drake to tumble itself over with such an attack, for instance, as would happen if it bull rushed anything into an obstacle.  Maybe look at the text for gust of wind, or maybe use the trick I wrote that gave the breath weapon the Massive property (similar outcome with a simpler mechanic)?

Enlarge Breath, meanwhile, seems to be well covered by core rulebook species feats.

I'll come back to this with a tidied up first post, containing some sort of final version of the feats & tricks I wrote soon - promise!

[The_Grand_User]

Ah, I keep forgetting that fire in FC is "sticky" by default. Personally, I would have prefered that aspect be a Campaign Quality. Though I do agree the Clinging Breath needs some sort of penalty to it, I'm just not sure what, though given the way fire works, it may just be redundant.

I suppose massive would be the simpler option for a trick, I didn't notice you already had made one.

I'm not aware of any character options in the core rules that actual extend the range of a breath weapons. There's Greater Breath whcih technically gives the breath weapon a longer reach if it stays a line, but the others have only one length.

[paddyfool]

I'm not aware of any character options in the core rules that actual extend the range of a breath weapons. There's Greater Breath whcih technically gives the breath weapon a longer reach if it stays a line, but the others have only one length.

Curse my feeble memory.  Yes, I was thinking of Greater Breath, and I rather thought it did more than it does.  Perhaps there is room for a trick or two (although again, they should have a cost).

[paddyfool]

Finalised versions of the main feats up in the original post (basically cribbed from Morgenstern's post).  Should be good to go now, imho.

[paddyfool]

OK, I put them on the database, and the response wasn't too hot (badump).  In particular, the first feat was scored poorly for utility and balance (admittedly by only up to three voters, but that's still something), suggesting, I would surmise, that some feel we may have overburdened that stance with disadvantages.

Now, in and of itself, that stance does have fairly specific utility - you're giving up (a lot of) mobility to create a fortified position.  But that specific utility has its place - when you have to block opponents off from getting where they want to go, stand over a wounded comrade/clutch of eggs/macguffin, such things are very handy.  It might also be handy when your back's to the wall and you're unable to fly anywhere.  However, given how much mobility is being sacrificed, should we take out the inability to use the breath weapon normally?

[magustoad]

I've kind felt that a lot of stances take the 'no movement' penalty. It really hampers their usage to very situational scenarios, imo.  Half action to enter and then can't move?  Always makes me think twice due to how often battlefield movement becomes pretty damn important.

I kind of wish that more stances had entry points you could leverage to make them flow a bit better, but obviously not as well as the feat allows.

[paddyfool]

In this case, "no movement" fits, as does it taking some time (if anything, a half action is generous).  You've got a dragon ringed and wreathed by fire [or other breath weapon]; if they move, they're out of the zone they've fortified. 

On the whole, I only see such stances having two uses: for ranged combatants, who can influence the rest of the battlefield from a suitable position without moving (e.g. deadshot stance) and for combatants who want to hold a certain position on the battlefield (e.g. this one).  Anything else, and the benefits aren't likely to be worth it.

Another thing I was considering was whether I might be able to get in another benefit by the back door - that of adding your ranged combat feats to a breath weapon's save DC (giving it a bit of both kinds of application for a no movement stance).

[Sletchman]

Plus, Breath Weapon use is a full round action - so normally you won't be moving when you use it anyway.  So I don't consider no movement an unfair downside.

[magustoad]

No, I agree that no move fits this feat.  I was just making a general observation with stances.  Sorry if I didn't make that clear.  Things in my head can make complete sense and then fall on their spear on paper.