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Author Topic: A question related to armours...  (Read 1007 times)
Arioch
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« on: July 20, 2011, 09:18:18 AM »

Hi!
Sorry if this question already arised in the forum, I was not able to find it. Embarrassed

It seems to my players (and they have almost convinced me) that the Chainmail armour (moderate) is absolutely the best armour around to the point that it seems plausible for a player to ask why to choose other armours: please tell me that my PCs are wrong!  Smiley I'm missing some points?

Comparison:
DRResDPACPSpeedDisguiseWeightCost
Mod. Chainmail + Heavy Fits :5Edged 3-2-1-10ft-1252lb325
Articulated + Heavy Fits :7Blunt 2-3-3-10ftObvious67lb1675

Considering that I'm attacked by :
- an edged weapon: I will avoid up to 8 damage spending only 325s, 7 in the other case!
- a blunt weapon  : I'll avoid only 5 damage (3 less), against a good 9 with the plate (that's right considering the cost!)

But it is when considering DP and ACP that the chain rules (and I'm not considering the case in which it is customized with "fitted"! Cost: 975s vs 5025s!!)

Ring/chainmails, historically speaking, had an issue: all their weight was carried on the shoulder of the user and thus could not be wear for long periods of time. Moreover were more vulnerable to blunt weapons.

I'm thinking about some minor change on the chainmail, just to balance things a little more... but do I really need it? How do you think I can convert into the mechanics of the game the above mentioned aspects of fatigue/vulnerability?

Thanks!!
« Last Edit: July 20, 2011, 09:35:54 AM by Arioch » Logged
paddyfool
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« Reply #1 on: July 20, 2011, 11:13:29 AM »

I feel generally in agreement with you.  What you get as an upgrade to DR isn't much for what you lose, especially as good plate should be just about bulletproof, and it does tend to make the more expensive armours very unappetising.

One specific critique of your analysis, however:

Quote
Considering that I'm attacked by :
- an edged weapon: I will avoid up to 8 damage spending only 325s, 7 in the other case!
- a blunt weapon  : I'll avoid only 5 damage (3 less), against a good 9 with the plate (that's right considering the cost!)

If you're attacked by anything else (projectiles, fire damage, acid damage, force damage etc.), the plate DR will be 2 higher (although it's much cheaper to stack resistances on the chain).  Blunt resistance is also a particularly handy trait, since a lot of blunt weapons deal subdual damage (which would normally ignore your armour completely).  However, as I say, I feel you may have something of a point.
« Last Edit: July 20, 2011, 03:11:44 PM by paddyfool » Logged
Coyote0273
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« Reply #2 on: July 20, 2011, 02:23:50 PM »

Pure number and crunch data, you're always going to have 1 item that outshines everything else. Every system has that. Even Gimli and Aragorn wore chain armor in the movies.

Real question is thematic. Spanish Conquestadors wore Light Plate with Light or Medium fittings for instance, being accurate to that theme, odds are so would many players. Fellow Knights might laugh at a player and cost him rep if he walked around in chain rather than plate like all of them.
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Arioch
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« Reply #3 on: July 20, 2011, 03:04:26 PM »

Do you ever considered the possibility to introduce a sort of "vulnerability" to armours?

In the case of the chainmail could be "Blunt 2". This basically means that every blunt weapon have an AP +2 versus this armour...
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paddyfool
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« Reply #4 on: July 20, 2011, 03:59:44 PM »

What chainmail really was weak against, apparently, was piercing weapons (it was usually worn over a gambeson or other padded armour, which helped take the oomph out of blunt impacts).

Further issues with plate: they say that articulated plate (as opposed to tournament plate) was at least as easy, if not easier, to move around in than mail, which makes the DP/ACP differential seem a little harsh.  What I'd be most tempted to try to boost plate options would be one or another of three things: 1) lower their DP penalty by 1; 2) give them another point of DR; or 3) give them some kind of "minimum DR" feature (ie that whatever the AP of the weapon, the armour always soaks at least 1 or 2 points of damage).  I'm happy, however, with articulated plate being prohibitively expensive, seeing as a good suit of it really was (whatever odd effects that produces visavis basic articulated plate being nigh impossible to upgrade further... that said, I'm also tempted to homebrew some kind of minimum and maximum costs for upgrades).
« Last Edit: July 20, 2011, 04:04:01 PM by paddyfool » Logged
Sletchman
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« Reply #5 on: July 21, 2011, 06:58:00 PM »

I agree 100% with Coyote0273 here - yeah you're gonna sometimes get a peak cost:benefit ratio with gear*, and you can find the exact same thing in the weapons chart (some weapons are better and cheaper then others).

I think plate should be expensive and rare, but that fits my setting - if it's common in your setting lower the price.  If the stats are a problem, bump up the DR of plate (I upped it by 2 pts personally), or do what paddyfool suggests - give it a minimum DR.


** My last game - all players wearing padded or leather, upgraded to the max.
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Agent 333
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« Reply #6 on: July 23, 2011, 01:46:26 AM »

See, you say Chainmail is the best, I think that for that price point I'd rather have Hardened Leather. So, at the least, is one dissenting opinion  Wink.
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« Reply #7 on: July 23, 2011, 01:56:32 AM »

Then there is the environment to consider:

Chainmail at royal ball, bad
Chainmail on Viking longship in a storm, bad
Chainmail in the desert, bad
It's a Primative Era world
It's not legal for commoners to wear armour in the city
There is a plague of rust monsters

Trust me, with a veteran referee there are no 'best' choices.
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Arioch
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« Reply #8 on: July 23, 2011, 04:27:49 AM »

Thanks you all for your replies!  Smiley (I do really love this forum!)

Of course settings details/background can balance things a lot, my considerations were basically about the mechanics. But maybe I considered things  from a more "D&Dish" point of view, where edged damage was likely the most frequent (traditionally no big differences between weapons in AD&D, so you were not so encouraged as a DM to choose NPC's weapon with care: every bad guy ended up with a long/bastard/twohanded sword most of the times  Smiley )

@agent 333: your consideration about hardened are right (in effect that armour was my second-best choice), especially if you consider the upgrades on it, which in the chain mail case I did not in detail.
 
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Coyote0273
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« Reply #9 on: July 23, 2011, 12:19:25 PM »

Of course settings details/background can balance things a lot, my considerations were basically about the mechanics. But maybe I considered things  from a more "D&Dish" point of view, where edged damage was likely the most frequent (traditionally no big differences between weapons in AD&D, so you were not so encouraged as a DM to choose NPC's weapon with care: every bad guy ended up with a long/bastard/twohanded sword most of the times  Smiley )

That's one of the best aspects of this game is that with the proper weapon feats every weapon is unique and useful. With Knife Supremacy, your little dagger wielding halfling is just as deadly a combat monster to standard NPCs as your big bad ass axe wielding Orc. Once your players realize that, you'll have the whole gambit of weapons.
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« Reply #10 on: July 23, 2011, 12:34:03 PM »

Of course settings details/background can balance things a lot, my considerations were basically about the mechanics. But maybe I considered things  from a more "D&Dish" point of view, where edged damage was likely the most frequent (traditionally no big differences between weapons in AD&D, so you were not so encouraged as a DM to choose NPC's weapon with care: every bad guy ended up with a long/bastard/twohanded sword most of the times  Smiley )

That's one of the best aspects of this game is that with the proper weapon feats every weapon is unique and useful. With Knife Supremacy, your little dagger wielding halfling is just as deadly a combat monster to standard NPCs as your big bad ass axe wielding Orc. Once your players realize that, you'll have the whole gambit of weapons.


Coyote's right. Every weapon type has a feat chain to make it awesome, so you can FINALLY pick a weapon for style factor rather than damage code. FC is the only system where I can say you don't need to pick weapon A over weapon B.
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« Reply #11 on: July 23, 2011, 12:57:19 PM »

It's the only game that doesn't reduce all weapons to being the same that I can think of where any weapon choice is good. Some are good out of the gate, some require appropriate feat support and tactical choices.
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Rhishisikk
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« Reply #12 on: July 27, 2011, 09:54:59 AM »

That's one of the best aspects of this game is that with the proper weapon feats every weapon is unique and useful. With Knife Supremacy, your little dagger wielding halfling is just as deadly a combat monster to standard NPCs as your big bad ass axe wielding Orc. Once your players realize that, you'll have the whole gambit of weapons.

Also goes for NPCs.  Once tricked out a Saurian Scout with Ambush and some Knife feats.  Players were surprised he was built on 25 points (less than half the cost of the "hoss" monster he helped take down). 

If you doubt this, try ONE session of "all soldier" game.  Just because the iconic Soldier is a charging ogre doesn't make that the only soldier build.  Our greatswordsman secretly feared the caveman with Club Supremacy.  "So if he wins initiative, and breaks one of my arms, I'm down to bashing him with my shield while he subdues me?" 

Crafty games is like that.  It's not just rock-paper-scissors.  It's rock-paper-scissors-dynamite-cauliflour-zombie flytrap-et cetera. 
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SilvercatMoonpaw
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« Reply #13 on: July 27, 2011, 10:08:31 AM »

Our greatswordsman secretly feared the caveman with Club Supremacy.
So want to play that.
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